England and One Day Cricket?

[GIMH]

In the last 3 years or so we have seen English Test Cricket rise up and up, with famous away victories in the West Indies and South Africa, Seven home wins out of seven in 2004 and of course the historic 2005 Ashes win. We also recently secured a fantastic draw in India with half a team, this in a series everybody had written us off for following our first defeat in two years, away to a deservedly victorious Pakistan. basically recent times have been good and the future looks bright for test cricket in England.

Because of this, in an optimistic wave of euphoria on September 12th last year and onwards, those less in the know have said because of all this, England can be looking to winning the World Cup next year in the West Indies. Anyone who has watched this series in India, the last one in Pakistan, or indeed any away series in recent years, and most at home, knows, that this is complete nonsense and that unless something miraculous happens, we will fall short once again in the World Cup, probably at the Super Eight stage.

We made the final of the last Champions Trophy, and held our own against the Aussies, but let's be honest, watching our One day side has been disappointing for English fans, to put it mildly. Where we stand in One Day Cricket now isn't too far off where I was accustomed with us standing in Test Cricket growing up ie nowhere, not good enoguh to challenge the best except for the occasional one-off performance that gives everybody hope.

So why is this? Most people seem to rank us as #2 in the world in Tests, and I doubt the Aussies will ever be less optimistic going into a home Ashes series than they will be in November. Why can our Test side scale such heights while our One day team just falls away?

Listening to "experts" a common view seems to be that we tinker far too much to our One day team in comparison to our Test side. Players like Kabir Ali, Vikram Solanki, Gareth Batty etc simply aren't good enough IMO to compete at the top level. World Cups are only every four years, while I certainly don't think we'll win it, I'd love for us to have a good run - if players like these are in the side Kenya will be licking their lips!

Okay, I am getting carried away, but what does everybody think? What side should we play in One day cricket, and why does the side we currently pick fail so consistently?

Test Cricket is my priority but the thought of us getting hammered in the Champions Trophy, then hammered in the VB Series before topping it all off by getting hammered in the World Cup is very disheartening.

 

[Pothas]

England have some very good one day players but obviously lack any strength in depth and also i dont think they have aquired that mental resiliance and the one day game they they have in test matches. The currnet series in India we must not forget the injuies and difficult conditions faced against the Indian side. I would personaly look to make the ODI side as similar to the test side as possible. So something like:

1.Trescothick
2.Strauss
3.Bell/Vaughan
4.Pieterson
5.Flintoff
6.Colingwood
7.Read
8.Giles
9.Harmmison
10.Jones
11.Anderson

This may be a little weak on the batting front and obviously depends on fittness but if Flintof finds the form with the bat in ODIs that he has in Test matches and the bowlers perform then that is a pretty good side.

 

[GIMH]

Yes, the One Day speiclaist I have always been in favour of is Collingwood, except that he is now a Test player!

Perhaps we use ODIs too much as a breeding ground for youngsters?

 

[ramkumar_gr]

England have some very good one day players but obviously lack any strength in depth and also i dont think they have aquired that mental resiliance and the one day game they they have in test matches. The currnet series in India we must not forget the injuies and difficult conditions faced against the Indian side. I would personaly look to make the ODI side as similar to the test side as possible. So something like:

1.Trescothick
2.Strauss
3.Bell/Vaughan
4.Pieterson
5.Flintoff
6.Colingwood
7.Read
8.Giles
9.Harmmison
10.Jones
11.Anderson

This may be a little weak on the batting front and obviously depends on fittness but if Flintof finds the form with the bat in ODIs that he has in Test matches and the bowlers perform then that is a pretty good side.

I dont see any reason why Read should replace Jones, given the fact that Geraint has come good in the last 2 ODIs.

 

[Neil Pickup]

Here's part one of the solution - as pioneered by Australia in the T20 game and the CWXI - pick a kit that's so hideous that the opponents can't concentrate on what they're supposed to be doing...

 

[Barney Rubble]

England don't play one-day cricket any more. It's becoming increasingly clear after recent games that we only play half-day cricket, if that.

 

[chris.hinton]

Funny you have a go at the 3 worcester players

MY team

Trecothick
Struass
Pietersen
Collingwood
Solanki
G Jones
Flintoff
Blackwell
Jones
Harminson
Anderson

Kabir Ali, bell, Cook, Batty and 2 others as reserves

 

[Barney Rubble]

Funny you have a go at the 3 worcester players

Well if that's so unfair, perhaps you could provide some grounds on which they deserve their places in the side...

 

[Neil Pickup]

Rikki has to be recalled.

 

[Pothas]

Angus Frasier was calling for it on the radio the other day so it may well happen

 

[Scaly piscine]

England have very rarely fielded their strongest side in ODIs, this is the sort of thing that happens in cricket if you focus so much on Test cricket, something has to be sacrificed and that thing has been ODI cricket - whether it be new players being tried out, rested, not caring, knackered after the Tests, batting lineup chopping and changing. As has been said England don't have the depth, especially so in ODI cricket and aren't the sort of side that can give 80% and get away with it because most of their players are hard workers not flair players.

 

[wpdavid]

Can someone please explain the widespread assumption that Strauss should continue to open for our oneday side?

 

[honestbharani]

Ideally, this should be their best side:


Tresco (he walks in, even in bad form)
Pieterson
Flintoff
Strauss
Collingwood
whoever else is good enough for this spot
Jones/Prior/Read (wk)
Blackwell/Giles (both bowl at the same level IMHO, Giles may BAT better, though)
Harmison
Anderson
Jones/Hoggard/someone else


Personally, I think it is that one spot at 6 that they have to seal. Maybe have someone like Bell in there, bat him up at 3 and have Freddie at 5 or 6 as the late order power player. I think Pieterson is in such good form that he should be given as many overs to bat as possible. HIs long strides to the front foot will affect almost all new ball bowlers in the world, and it is time for England to take this chance. STrauss seemed to be at his best at 4, playing a Thorpe like role in this side. They still need that one really good quality middle order bat though. Not sure someone like Bell would fit the bill. Anyone else in the county scene who can hit the ball for big hits but also play intelligently in different gears?

 

[honestbharani]

Scaly, I don't think the team management are willingly sacrificing ODIs in England's case. Fletcher's face said it all at the end of the Delhi ODI. They do take ODIs seriously and want to win every game they play in. The only reason certain guys don't play in their ODI side while they play in their test side is because the team management and selectors feel that those guys are not suited for ODIs (example: Hoggard). If England persist with the key players and try hard and get a few wins under the belt (esp. if the side is the like one I just posted) they will be a real threat in the ODIs as well. The key is to get rid of players like Prior (at least they should only play one keeper). I mean, surely, Prior isn' t so good that he can leapfrog some many OD top order players in the county scene...

 

[wpdavid]

Ideally, this should be their best side:


Tresco (he walks in, even in bad form)
Pieterson
Flintoff
Strauss
Collingwood
whoever else is good enough for this spot
Jones/Prior/Read (wk)
Blackwell/Giles (both bowl at the same level IMHO, Giles may BAT better, though)
Harmison
Anderson
Jones/Hoggard/someone else


Personally, I think it is that one spot at 6 that they have to seal. Maybe have someone like Bell in there, bat him up at 3 and have Freddie at 5 or 6 as the late order power player. I think Pieterson is in such good form that he should be given as many overs to bat as possible. HIs long strides to the front foot will affect almost all new ball bowlers in the world, and it is time for England to take this chance. STrauss seemed to be at his best at 4, playing a Thorpe like role in this side. They still need that one really good quality middle order bat though. Not sure someone like Bell would fit the bill. Anyone else in the county scene who can hit the ball for big hits but also play intelligently in different gears?

Interesting promotion of KP to open the innings. Don't know if I'd go that far, but I can see the case for playing him at 3. I know that could only make one ball's difference, but there you go. Put it down to gut feeling. More than most contributors, you've actually applied a bit of reality to the discussion of England's oneday side by recognising that Strauss has been an absolute disaster opening in this form of the game. As you say, his only real run of scores came lower in the order. Quite why he's escaped the treatment dished out to Solanki in these forums is anyone's guess.

So who should open with Tresco, assuming he ever returns? It looks like a choice between Bell, Vaughan, Prior & Jones. I'd be tempted to go for one of the 2 keepers in that position, and play Solanki at 7, where he has actually managed some of his best innings for the side. In between, have KP at 3, Strauss at 4, Fred at 5 and hope that Collingwood starts scoring enough to justify his place at 6. Maybe be flexible with the lineup if the wicket is doing loads at the start of the innings and protect Pietersen.

As for the bowlers, Giles must come back if he's ever fit. If not, and Blackwell continues to do zilch with the bat, maybe try out Swann. Followed by Anderson, Harmison and, if ever fit, S. Jones. Otherwise, Plunkett.

Which all looks OK on paper but, as has been mentioned previously, too many of the automatic picks haven't actually done very much over the last 2 years, especially in the top 6. That seems to offend some people, but they really need to have a look at the scorecards since 2004. I'm beginning to wonder if our test squad wouldn't be better advised to put their feet up during the next WC and send the A squad out there to gain a bit of experience.

 

[Barney Rubble]

Can someone please explain the widespread assumption that Strauss should continue to open for our oneday side?

I've been saying that for ages. His only hundred came at four, his averages at 3 and 4 are significantly higher than as opener....all the signs are there.

Personally, I'm starting to really come around to the idea of Pietersen opening the batting with Trescothick. I hope Jamee999 remembers that I mentioned the idea to him in an MSN convo a few months ago - think I may have mentioned it to Neil as well.

To be honest, he's the only player we can rely on in this form of the game to keep producing the goods - he'd take the pressure off Trescothick when it came to fast starts, he'd let Strauss play the anchor at four, he'd not get into conflict with Fred....there's a lot of positives. Plus if he stayed the whole 50 overs he'd probably end up with nearly 200.

 

[Pothas]

I can see the reasoning behind that but when chasing down a total England really need him at the end of the inings. I think 4 is the best place for him.

 

[chris.hinton]

A Facotr in this is that we play too many forms of the one day game which other counties simply dont

The rubbish this year of the C&G trophy into two groups is awful..... 50 over knockout

and the national league as 40 overs rubbish it should be 50 overs

then we might see something a little better

 

[wpdavid]

A Facotr in this is that we play too many forms of the one day game which other counties simply dont

The rubbish this year of the C&G trophy into two groups is awful..... 50 over knockout

and the national league as 40 overs rubbish it should be 50 overs

then we might see something a little better

Isn't the national league 45 overs? I take your point though, even if it doesn't really explain why our top 5 tend to disappear in the first 25 overs of the innings.

 

[chris.hinton]

its 40 overs this year