Underrated XI

[Goughy]

Okay here is a start. Really great players who, somehow, do not appear to get there due.

Dilipsinhji and Eddie Paynter of England. They averaged 58.5 and 59.3 in the 1930's when these astronomical averages were unheard of.

Unheard of? Im sorry if Im missing the irony but Bradman anyone?

Also Wally Hammond (58.45), Sutcliffe (60.73), Len Hutton and the enourmous potential of Archie Jackson amongst others.

Again sorry if I missed the irony but I cant beleive you are being serious.

Also, Duleepsinhji only played 12 tests and has 3 tons. Hardly figures to be ranked that highly.

 

[SJS]

Unheard of? Im sorry if Im missing the irony but Bradman anyone?

Also Wally Hammond (58.45), Sutcliffe (60.73), Len Hutton and the enourmous potential of Archie Jackson amongst others.

Again sorry if I missed the irony but I cant beleive you are being serious.

Also, Duleepsinhji only played 12 tests and has 3 tons. Hardly figures to be ranked that highly.

Thanks for the sarcasm Gougyhy

Surprise surprise I had heard of Bradman and Sutcliffe and knew about their respective career timings too.

No mate, when I suggested that astronomical figures were unheard of, I meant that they were not as common place as they are today. If you disagree with the choce of words thats okay.

As for Duleep playing only 12 games well if you have read the history of the game you would also knopw that he was affwected by bad health and his career too.

Twenty tests for Paynter is not very different from Headley of West Indies. That apart, its one of the mysteries of cricket why Paynter was not played more often by England. His performance did not appear to warrant the negleact.

Finally, if we have players who have played 100 plus tests with averages in the fifties, they wouldnt fit into the under rated category would they ?

Yes I am aware of Archie jackson, perhaps a bit more than you may realise but thats besides the point. I started with England players and was going to come to australian players later.

Incidentally, Jackson is widely rated as one of the greatest batsmen ever to come out of Australia. I can quote the sources which say similar things. He has been called the greatest batsman of a generation that included Bradman. High praise right - sounds like under rated ? hmmmmm.

But I agree Jackson is not widely known amongst cricket followers but the students of the game who know of him almost invariably know him as a player who, during his brief and tragic life/career appeared far better than any one around him.

By the way, even at 56 if I have a cricket hero it is Archie Jackson

 

[steds]

Anyone else noticed the oxymoron at the bottom of SJS' sig?

 

[Goughy]

Thanks for the sarcasm Gougyhy

Twenty tests for Paynter is not very different from Headley of West Indies. That apart, its one of the mysteries of cricket why Paynter was not played more often by England. His performance did not appear to warrant the negleact.

Throughout my reading of cricket and studies I have garnered a lot of respect for the above mentioned Mr. Paynter. His lack of opportunities, his finanicial issues later in life, his proud and defiant attitude all make for a character to empathise with. I respect and admire him more than most players.

If he spoke with a different accent and walked out of a different gate his career would have been so different.

 

[sirjeremy11]

He's now finally getting some credit, but Hoggy's been terribly undervalued for a long time. Now our tenth highest wicket taker (just moved ahead of Laker) and, of those ahead of him, only Trueman & Goughie have better strike rates.

Agreed. Hoggard seems to take fourth spot in prominence behind Jones, Harmison, and Freddie. That is why he is so underrated IMO.

Have to say, knew nothing about the guy really until he arrived in NZ in 2002, off the back of a reasonable tour to India, and he absolutely ripped us up in the first test. Had the ball on an absolute string.

 

[Pedro Delgado]

Throughout my reading of cricket and studies I have garnered a lot of respect for the above mentioned Mr. Paynter. His lack of opportunities, his finanicial issues later in life, his proud and defiant attitude all make for a character to empathise with. I respect and admire him more than most players.

If he spoke with a different accent and walked out of a different gate his career would have been so different.

He can't have been that bright, born a Lancs lad and ended his days in Keighley.

 

[Pedro Delgado]

This guy is incredible:

In the fourth Test at Brisbane, he was taken to hospital with tonsillitis and doubtless, had all gone well with England, would not have batted. But all did not go well, and at 216 for 6 he emerged from the pavilion, refused Woodfull's offer of a runner, was still there at the close, and returned to bed in hospital. Next morning, he was not out until he had scored 83 in nearly four hours. On this occasion he and Verity put on 92 for the ninth wicket.

Must find a biography of Paynter, sounds like a splendid fellow.

 

[DJellett]

Oh, quite.
But I don't attach any signficance to anything involving Bangladesh and Zimbabwe.
Bowling wicket-taking balls in matches against said teams means as much to me as bowling them in domestic cricket.
IE - it doesn't prove anything as to Test cricket.

The worst bowler in the world can potentially bowl the best ball in the world.
As well, the best bowler in the world can bowl the biggest pie ever seen.

Regardless of who it is against, a gem of a ball is a gem of a ball. However, I think the difference is it is much easier to get the wicket of a lesser batsman with a lesser ball.

You could bowl a ball that would dismiss Lara but not McGrath, because McGrath may not be good enough to get the edge
But you are more likely to bowl McGrath with the same ball that Lara cracks for a boundary.

 

[steds]

He can't have been that bright, born a Lancs lad and ended his days in Keighley.

I know. Who'd go to Yorkshire?

 

[SJS]

Must find a biography of Paynter, sounds like a splendid fellow.

I have never come across a biography but you might lay a hand on
"Cricket All The Way"
By Eddie Paynter
As told to Alan Buckley

 

[Goughy]

This could be classed as a bizzare choice, so I have no problems if people disagree. In fact my choice my be in many peoples overrated XIs.

However, I choose Graeme Hick.

I never bought into the flat track bully accusations and to understand the failure of Hick is to understand his mentality.

He was very much a player who desperately needed to be loved and appreciated and to his misfortune was involved in an England team whos man-management skills were poor to say the least.

With the correct surroundings and a sympathetic and skilled management team this guy would have been great.

He never acheived what was expected of him, but he is still IMO underrated because he was never provided the environment in which a player of his fragile temprament could flourish.

It takes all sorts and the England team at the time could not handle a personality who required extra work and effort (see also Andy Caddick)

Team success is in understanding the needs and wants of different personalities and Mr. Hick was failed by those around him.

 

[Pedro Delgado]

I have never come across a biography but you might lay a hand on
"Cricket All The Way"
By Eddie Paynter
As told to Alan Buckley

Thanks SJS, sahib.

 

[Pedro Delgado]

This could be classed as a bizzare choice, so I have no problems if people disagree. In fact my choice my be in many peoples overrated XIs.

However, I choose Graeme Hick.

I never bought into the flat track bully accusations and to understand the failure of Hick is to understand his mentality.

He was very much a player who desperatey needed to be loved and appreciated and to his misfortune was involved in an England team whos man-management skills were poor to say the least.

With the correct surroundings and a sympathetic and skilled management team this guy would have been great.

Team success is in understanding the needs and wants of different personalities and Mr. Hick was failed by those around him.

He faced some bloody good bowlers too.

I agree. He'd have flourished in the current climate and under this regime.

 

[SJS]

This could be classed as a bizzare choice, so I have no problems if people disagree. In fact my choice my be in many peoples overrated XIs.

However, I choose Graeme Hick.

I never bought into the flat track bully accusations and to understand the failure of Hick is to understand his mentality.

He was very much a player who desperately needed to be loved and appreciated and to his misfortune was involved in an England team whos man-management skills were poor to say the least.

With the correct surroundings and a sympathetic and skilled management team this guy would have been great.

He never acheived what was expected of him, but he is still IMO underrated because he was never provided the environment in which a player of his fragile temprament could flourish.

It takes all sorts and the England team at the time could not handle a personality who required extra work and effort (see also Andy Caddick)

Team success is in understanding the needs and wants of different personalities and Mr. Hick was failed by those around him.

Agreed in totality.

 

[dontcloseyoureyes]

Err, what?
Slater (as you can tell by his commentary) is extremely clever. He was also a much better player of the seaming and swinging ball.
I don't know much about Hayden's intelligence, but I do know that, until that 94 in the recent Test, we had every reason to consider him a poor player of seam and swing, the thing that Test-match opening is supposed to be about combatting.

I mean concentration-wise. Slater almost always had some stupid brain explosion when he was looking most damaging.

 

[tooextracool]

Agreed. Hoggard seems to take fourth spot in prominence behind Jones, Harmison, and Freddie. That is why he is so underrated IMO.

Have to say, knew nothing about the guy really until he arrived in NZ in 2002, off the back of a reasonable tour to India, and he absolutely ripped us up in the first test. Had the ball on an absolute string.

hoggard was until the recent series either 3rd or 4th spot in terms of bowling ability after flintoff and jones. even during the Ashes there were some who called for his head after his performances in the first few tests. what we've seen in india is not just his development with relation to bowling with the old ball, but also that he managed to land ball after ball on the same spot without straying quite unlike what he did during the ashes. further he also bowled consistently above 80 mph, again something that is testiment to his fitness given the conditions in India. The most important thing about Hoggard as Nasser Hussain has often mentioned is that hes prepared to bowl long spells and bend his back for his captain(often referred to as 'captain's dream').But unlike flintoff,harmison and jones, not once did his pace drop during the series despite those long spells.

 

[Swervy]

I know. Who'd go to Yorkshire?

erm

 

[BoyBrumby]

This guy is incredible:

In the fourth Test at Brisbane, he was taken to hospital with tonsillitis and doubtless, had all gone well with England, would not have batted. But all did not go well, and at 216 for 6 he emerged from the pavilion, refused Woodfull's offer of a runner, was still there at the close, and returned to bed in hospital. Next morning, he was not out until he had scored 83 in nearly four hours. On this occasion he and Verity put on 92 for the ninth wicket.

Must find a biography of Paynter, sounds like a splendid fellow.

I don't know of a biography, but there is a full chapter devoted to his magnificent 83 in David Frith's rather splendid Bodyline Autopsy. Well worth a read.

Eddie was supposed to be "longest in the showers*" too, so doubly blessed!

*any Soccer AM viewers should get this reference.

 

[Pedro Delgado]

I don't know of a biography, but there is a full chapter devoted to his magnificent 83 in David Frith's rather splendid Bodyline Autopsy. Well worth a read.

Eddie was supposed to be "longest in the showers*" too, so doubly blessed!

*any Soccer AM viewers should get this reference.

Box Sizes:

S
M
L
XL
Daylight
Paynter

 

[Richard]

This could be classed as a bizzare choice, so I have no problems if people disagree. In fact my choice my be in many peoples overrated XIs.

However, I choose Graeme Hick.

I never bought into the flat track bully accusations and to understand the failure of Hick is to understand his mentality.

He was very much a player who desperately needed to be loved and appreciated and to his misfortune was involved in an England team whos man-management skills were poor to say the least.

With the correct surroundings and a sympathetic and skilled management team this guy would have been great.

He never acheived what was expected of him, but he is still IMO underrated because he was never provided the environment in which a player of his fragile temprament could flourish.

It takes all sorts and the England team at the time could not handle a personality who required extra work and effort (see also Andy Caddick)

Team success is in understanding the needs and wants of different personalities and Mr. Hick was failed by those around him.

You're aware of Hick's response to Illingworth's bluntness: "I think you've got a soft centre. And I think it's because you've had a mollycoddled upbringing. Go out and prove me wrong"?