Can someone explain the Mumbai Disaster, please?

[Richard]

Scoring runs means you are forgiven anything. But now that he is struggling with back injuries, as well as poor form, better fitness can only help in both respects.

You think scoring runs (which he's hardly been doing in abundance in ODIs for the last 2 years) is worthy of forgiving for being so slow in the field as Sehwag?

 

[Richard]

Bring Back Parthiv Patel, at least he could bat.

As well as Karthik?
I can't help thinking not.

 

[Langeveldt]

The thread title makes it seem like India have some kind of divine right to win everything..

Thanks to Dravid for letting England bat first.. Its always a ludicrous decision, unless skies are overcast yet the forcast is good.. Why would you want to bat last??!

 

[Richard]

Turns out that Kaif has played 9 tests over a period of 6 years, averaging about 26.
I reckon that a 19 year old is entitled to struggle against the SA attack of that era, and I certainly wouldn't want to write a 25 year old off after a handful of in & out appearances. As you know, we've seen far too much of that ourselves. As for the ODI/test thing, I know they're not the same, but sometimes you just think that a young player has shown that they have something whatever the format of the game. His couple of half centuries against Aus also suggetsed a bit of character, given that the rest of the side was doing not a lot. Of course, he was never going to feature very much when SRT, Dravid, Laxman & Ganguly were available and in any sort of form, but clearly that era is coming to an end. Anyway, as I'm probably digging a hole for myself, as I really don't know enough about the alternatives.

I'll be very, very sad if Tendulkar's era is coming to an end at 33, and Laxman's at just 31. I'm sad enough that Ganguly has apprently been pensioned-off at just 33.
Showing character is all well and good, but you need to show ability. I actually forgot that he was only 19 in 1999\2000 - stupid selection, really - throwing to the lions. But still - he has had a few more chances in the meantime. Most players only get that sort of thing. Just those who have long careers stamp their authority and get their name into the hat, and as soon as a place comes-up they nail it down.
Consistency of selection is all well and good - but it's equally very rare.
TBH there are players I'd prefer see given the consistency than Kaif. I don't know as much as some, but I know there are players like Sriram who average all but 60 in their First-Class careers and never play a single Test, which, frankly, is criminal. The like of Raina and Rao are too young at present for my liking, but perhaps their time will come 2-3 years down the line.

 

[Langeveldt]

Bring Back Parthiv Patel, at least he could bat.

Not really, he might not be as stupid as Dhoni, but he can't cut the mustard at test level in any shape or form.. At least we know Dhoni can play..

And Patel looks like a five year old

 

[Richard]

The thread title makes it seem like India have some kind of divine right to win everything..

Thanks to Dravid for letting England bat first.. Its always a ludicrous decision, unless skies are overcast yet the forcast is good.. Why would you want to bat last??!

Because the pitch was seaming on the first morning, and it's likely that England's band of Hoggard, the recalled Anderson and Flintoff would've extracted plenty out of it.
I think it's extremely unlikely that it was solely Dravid's decision and I seriously hope he doesn't get all the blame for it.
As ITB and DIG were making the point post-match - all India's senior players are batsmen. If they don't fancy facing a powerful seam-attack on a seaming pitch - you can't really blame them.

 

[SJS]

Its always a ludicrous decision, unless skies are overcast yet the forcast is good.. Why would you want to bat last??!

I am sure he batted first because he was scared his own side might collapse on the fresh first day wicket. This is not to say he was right to do this but I am sure thas what the thinking was.

It was not an attackimg move but a defensive one.

Of course, it would have been better to take an extra batsman and bat first. Then the two descions - team configuration and what to do on winning hthe toss- would have been in sync.

 

[viktor]

The thread title makes it seem like India have some kind of divine right to win everything..

Thanks to Dravid for letting England bat first.. Its always a ludicrous decision, unless skies are overcast yet the forcast is good.. Why would you want to bat last??!

No it doesn't. If you watched India's performance at B'bay, you would realize why most of us agree it was a disaster.
Dravid made a bad decision but if the Indian's had held on to some pretty simple catches, things might have been different. If they had managed to not lose 7 wickets for 25 runs in an hour, things might have been different. Losing if your team gives as good as they can and come up short does not hurt as much. Its when they turn out such a shambolic performance, following esp. an interesting decision at the toss, that you classify it as a disaster. Nobody is claiming Eng didn't play well, they did.

 

[SJS]

Kaif is a cricketer of limited ability who makes the most of what he has and fights every inch. His success owes more to his temrament than to his abilities.

At test level he may have limited success in that while he is unlikely to set the Ganges on fire, he will not be an out and out disaster.

What thet really means is that if the other, more talented, players apply themselves, Kaif realy doesnt have a place in the side but will always be on the fringes.

 

[silentstriker]

You think scoring runs (which he's hardly been doing in abundance in ODIs for the last 2 years) is worthy of forgiving for being so slow in the field as Sehwag?

Forget the ODI's. In Tests, it is forgivable because he really was that good. Forgivable in the sense that you couldn't drop him due to his fielding, not that it was an optimum situation. It always would have been better had he been more fit obviously, but scoring runs masks a lot of weaknesses.

Now, with his back injuries, the fitness comes back into play.

 

[Sanz]

As well as Karthik?
I can't help thinking not.

But Karthik is a good Wicket-Keeper, India dont want a good wicket-keeper, they want just a wicket keeper who can bat and IMO Parthiv is a better batsman than Dhoni.

 

[Jono]

Showing character is all well and good, but you need to show ability. I actually forgot that he was only 19 in 1999\2000 - stupid selection, really - throwing to the lions. But still - he has had a few more chances in the meantime. Most players only get that sort of thing. Just those who have long careers stamp their authority and get their name into the hat, and as soon as a place comes-up they nail it down.
Consistency of selection is all well and good - but it's equally very rare.
TBH there are players I'd prefer see given the consistency than Kaif. I don't know as much as some, but I know there are players like Sriram who average all but 60 in their First-Class careers and never play a single Test, which, frankly, is criminal. The like of Raina and Rao are too young at present for my liking, but perhaps their time will come 2-3 years down the line.

I'm glad you said you forgot that he was 19 when he made his debut all the way back in 99/2000, because I've pretty much stricken that from the record when judging his int'l career so far. Its just useless in basing how valuable he is today, and how valuable he will be in the future.

If we look at his test career since the Aus in India tour in 2004/05 until now (once again as you've noted, a stop-start career at that) it is this:

                     Mat  Runs  HS   BatAv 100  50   W    BB  BowlAv 5w  Ct St

unfiltered             9   398  91   26.53   0   3   0   -       -    0  12  0
filtered               5   257  91   32.12   0   3   -   -       -    -  11  0

Not outstanding, but far from poor. I thought he threw his opportunity away in Ahmedabad against Sri Lanka where he was preferred over Ganguly. Once he failed in both innings there, I thought he would be out of the picture for a while, particularly with Yuvraj's success in both forms and Kaif's ODI form against Pakistan being poor as well. However he got an opportunity against England, made the best of it and scored a good 91 in a pressure situation. I actually have no problem with him being dropped for the 2nd test, and never criticised India for doing so (this despite me being probably his biggest supporter on this board) because I do think Laxman is clearly the superior player and should have been preferred. When both were left out, well that baffled me. Particularly since Chawla didn't do very much in the test.

However furthermore, that 64 of his against Australia in Chennai was a wonderful knock. His 102 run partnership with Patel was vital in putting India into a commanding position in that game, and had it not been for the rain maybe it would have been a match-winning one.

None the less I think this discussions is just a difference of opinion which can't really be proven by stats or debate over his career so far. Only Kaif will really prove one of us right or one of us wrong. One thing is for sure, it will be intriguing to see how his test career goes in the future.

 

[silentstriker]

The thread title makes it seem like India have some kind of divine right to win everything.. !

If the game is in India, on the last day, and India have 9 wickets to start the day, and you have Dravid, Sehwag, Tendulkar waiting to bat...its about as close to a divine right as you can get [to at least draw].

Not taking any credit away from England, but no batting line up should collapse in 15.2 overs, regardless of the quality of the bowling. Let alone collapse at home, and collapse with the calibre of batsman in the Indian team.

 

[Sanz]

And Patel looks like a five year old

 

[silentstriker]

Are you making fun of the greatest wicketkeeper to ever walk the earh?

 

[Sanz]

No, I am just laughing @ Lang's selection criteria.

 

[Sanz]

I'm glad you said you forgot that he was 19 when he made his debut all the way back in 99/2000, because I've pretty much stricken that from the record when judging his int'l career so far. Its just useless in basing how valuable he is today, and how valuable he will be in the future.

If we look at his test career since the Aus in India tour in 2004/05 until now (once again as you've noted, a stop-start career at that) it is this:

                     Mat  Runs  HS   BatAv 100  50   W    BB  BowlAv 5w  Ct St

unfiltered             9   398  91   26.53   0   3   0   -       -    0  12  0
filtered               5   257  91   32.12   0   3   -   -       -    -  11  0

Not outstanding, but far from poor. I thought he threw his opportunity away in Ahmedabad against Sri Lanka where he was preferred over Ganguly. Once he failed in both innings there, I thought he would be out of the picture for a while, particularly with Yuvraj's success in both forms and Kaif's ODI form against Pakistan being poor as well. However he got an opportunity against England, made the best of it and scored a good 91 in a pressure situation. I actually have no problem with him being dropped for the 2nd test, and never criticised India for doing so (this despite me being probably his biggest supporter on this board) because I do think Laxman is clearly the superior player and should have been preferred. When both were left out, well that baffled me. Particularly since Chawla didn't do very much in the test.

However furthermore, that 64 of his against Australia in Chennai was a wonderful knock. His 102 run partnership with Patel was vital in putting India into a commanding position in that game, and had it not been for the rain maybe it would have been a match-winning one.

None the less I think this discussions is just a difference of opinion which can't really be proven by stats or debate over his career so far. Only Kaif will really prove one of us right or one of us wrong. One thing is for sure, it will be intriguing to see how his test career goes in the future.

Jono - As usual top post. Personally I dont care if Kaif is branded as the guy with 'Limited Ability' etc, IMO he has the technique and temperament to do reasonably well @ test level. He may not be able to crack of 150+ scores every 4th innings (who does anyway ?) but I will be damn happy if he,coming in @ No. 6, can give us a 35-45 average over a period of time. Also Kaif is a more versatile fielder than Yuvraj, IMO he can field anywhere barring slip and do well, he is the hardest working cricketer in India right now and deserves to be in the test team.

 

[silentstriker]

Jono - As usual top post. Personally I dont care if Kaif is branded as the guy with 'Limited Ability' etc, IMO he has the technique and temperament to do reasonably well @ test level. He may not be able to crack of 150+ scores every 4th innings (who does anyway ?) but I will be damn happy if he,coming in @ No. 6, can give us a 35-45 average over a period of time. Also Kaif is a more versatile fielder than Yuvraj, IMO he can field anywhere barring slip and do well, he is the hardest working cricketer in India right now and deserves to be in the test team.

I am not sure if he is the ideal #6. He likes rotating the strike and singles and doubles are his bread and butter. I would think he might be better higher up the order.

 

[tooextracool]

We were cruising at lunch with Dravid steady and Tendulkar looking like he had regained some confidence.

i hardly call 75/3 cruising, and while Dravid looked somewhat confident against Flintoff, Tendulkar seemed to have absolutely no idea what he was doing until he got to face the rubbish of Panesar.

Then Dravid gone to a regulation ball outside off

You must have pretty high standards if you call a ball that swings in considerable and then hits the seam and holds its line a 'regulation ball'. As shown in a later replay with hawkeye, if the ball hadnt held its line Dravid would have been right behind it.

I don't even want to know what Sehwag did.

got a very good inswinging delivery by Anderson. He didnt play it too well, but one can put that down to his injury.

 

[tooextracool]

No shot should ever cost someone their career.
But I agree it was one of the most breathtakingly stupid acts we've ever seen.
Up there with Campbell-Hick at The Oval in 2000.

or the ramprakash-warne incident.