Can someone explain the Mumbai Disaster, please?

[Richard]

The way I see it, we need Kaif. He doesn't have extravagant shots, and right now, thats a good thing.

Batting line up of Chopra, Jaffer, Dravid*, Kaif, Raina, and Karthik+ for the WI tour, just to send a message.

I fail to see what not recalling Laxman will achieve.
Has Laxman been playing irresponsibly since SCG 2003\04? I've not watched many of his Tests in the time, but he sure as got some unfair treatment this series (dropped following 1 innings in which he got a poor decision).

 

[silentstriker]

Err... eh?
I backed myself that a player was not as good as everyone was saying, and I was proven right.
I've also backed myself that Udal is not as poor as people have claimed following Pakistan. I said that no-one would've succeeded on those pitches.
I said Udal might just be useful on a turner and, when he finally played on one, I was actually proven right. Udal did turn the ball, considerably, this Test. And he produced some excellent deliveries, the best being the one that took Tendulkar's wicket.

Hmm, I didn't that particular delivery was all that good. It was decent, but it was more Tendulkar than Udal there.

 

[Richard]

Drop Greg Chappell. We have had enough of his tricks, now get some real coach, someone who knows coaching and not a trick master.

Indian Cricketers are fatter than ever, cant catch, cant field, cant bat.

And that's the coach's fault?
Surely you should blame the fitness trainer if such is true?

 

[Richard]

Hmm, I didn't that particular delivery was all that good. It was decent, but it was more Tendulkar than Udal there.

I'd back that to get most batsmen out most of the time. It was an excellent delivery IMO.

 

[Richard]

Sehwag needs to work very hard on his fitness. He needs to drop at least 20 pounds...you shouldn't see a beer belly potruding on a 27 year old cricketer. Did you see him running after that flintoff boundry? My grandmother walks faster than that (with a walker).

Hasn't Sehwag always been slow and unfit?
I've never seen him look anything but.
I fully agree that becoming fitter might just help but... why has it not happened before now?

 

[silentstriker]

I fail to see what not recalling Laxman will achieve.
Has Laxman been playing irresponsibly since SCG 2003\04? I've not watched many of his Tests in the time, but he sure as got some unfair treatment this series (dropped following 1 innings in which he got a poor decision).

I was for Laxman being dropped, but I just went back and looked at his past one year in tests, and it hasn't really been that bad. The issue is that he has had too many single digit scores mixed in:

For example:

8*, 5, 69, 11, 105, 0

 

[Richard]

Haha that would be so damn hilarous. Seriously though, not Chopra, Gambhir maybe? Yuvraj hasn't done that poorly. Laxman should be back no?
Jaffer, Gambhir, Dravid*, Laxman, Yuvraj, Kaif, Karthik+, Pathan/Harbhajan, Kumble, Sreesanth, Munaf

Interesting that more than 2 people feel Karthik would be a good Test option...

 

[wpdavid]

Neither do I - it was an absolute sitter by Flintoff standards.
If he'd caught it I'd not be amazed if Kaif's Test career was over.

LOL - I was talking about him being dropped by Greg Chappell, not by Flintoff.

Kaif's average, by Indian standards, is poor - late 30s, early 40s (most of the best batsmen average over 50).
I've never understood why he's anywhere near the Test team. His fielding, surely, must have had some influence but I don't really know why because he's clearly a good outfielder, not close-catcher, and close-catching is the important thing in Tests.

Well, I don't follow them closely enough to know, tbh. I've always had a soft spot for Kaif and Yuvraj since the NW final in 2002, but I'm not claiming any real insight here. How many tests has Kaif actually played, and in what circumstances?

 

[Richard]

I was for Laxman being dropped, but I just went back and looked at his past one year in tests, and it hasn't really been that bad.

Good God, no it hasn't!
What a shockingly poor selection dropping him was!

 

[silentstriker]

Interesting that more than 2 people feel Karthik would be a good Test option...

ABD (Anyone But Dhoni) after that shot. I need a two series break from him, or I won't be able to hold my lunch when watching TV.

 

[Jono]

I was kind of kidding with Aakash Chopra. He was cool though Plus Sehwag seemed to like him, he batted very well with him and they had awesome opening partnerships, something which hasn't happened for a while (Leaving behind the 400+ one between Sehwag and Dravid on that pancake road against Pakistan). I'm willing to give Jaffer some time, far too early to dismiss him.

I am starting to have serious reservations about Yuvraj as a Test batsman, have never rated Kaif and Raina's still, what, 19?
Will maybe take a while to sort this out, and if Laxman is not recalled I can see disaster sometime soon.

Yuvraj has only ever been a class fielder in the outfield. He's never been much of a close-catcher, especially to the spinners.
I was amazed at some of Dravid's lackadaisacalability, though.

Can I ask why you have never rated Kaif? I'm not trying to get into an argument or anything, I'd just like to know because he's been one of my pet 'favourite' players for at least 3 years now so I'm just interested in why you don't see him as a talent.

Yuvraj has still shown too much lately to be simply dismissed yet on his past 2 tests. Plus, I hardly think his dismissal in the 2nd test against England was his fault. He played a cracking shot, and Bell took an unbelieavable catch. I thought that was 4 from the moment he hit it. His 2nd test however obviously was poor, but at the same time look at the shots he was hitting in the 1st innings. The talent is there, its so obvious... and barring a few instances where he does play a stupid shot his temperament is improving.

 

[silentstriker]

Good God, no it hasn't!
What a shockingly poor selection dropping him was!

Yea, the issue might be that string of one digit scores too often mixed in with a bigger score. If those single digits were instead something like 20-25, I'd feel much safer. Yuvraj has been in better form, and I am sure VVS would be included if we went with six batters.

 

[Richard]

LOL - I was talking about him being dropped by Greg Chappell, not by Flintoff.

Yeah - I know. I was making the point that he was very lucky to score as many as he did in the First Test.

Well, I don't follow them closely enough to know, tbh. I've always had a soft spot for Kaif and Yuvraj since the NW final in 2002, but I'm not claiming any real insight here. How many tests has Kaif actually played, and in what circumstances?

Oh, me too - was a moment of fulfullment.
But... yes, you guessed it... it was... a ODI.
Not a Test.
I've always rated both highly in ODIs, Kaif since that game, Yuvraj from his debut.
Kaif made his Test debut, incidentally, a full 2 years before he made his ODI debut against us in India - was apparently well worked-over by Donald, Klusener, Pollock, Hayward et al in the first series India lost at home to a non-subcontinental team for about 15 years or something. Since then he's often been in-and-out, has played the odd good knock (such as against Aus in the farce last autumn) but mostly has done nothing in Tests.
And with his unimpressive First-Class record it doesn't really surprise me.

 

[Richard]

Yea, the issue might be that string of one digit scores too often mixed in with a bigger score. If those single digits were instead something like 20-25, I'd feel much safer.

Very, very true.
Quite incredibly, in his sensational period where I attained such admiration for him, he made just two single-figure scores outside those seamer-beauties in NZ!!!!!. That's making double-figures in 42\44!

 

[Richard]

ABD (Anyone But Dhoni) after that shot. I need a two series break from him, or I won't be able to hold my lunch when watching TV.

Haha...
I think Karthik got a raw deal ITFP, TBH. If he'd been given a longer run, I reckon he'd have ended-up getting consistent runs in Tests.
Hope he gets another chance.

 

[silentstriker]

Hasn't Sehwag always been slow and unfit?
I've never seen him look anything but.
I fully agree that becoming fitter might just help but... why has it not happened before now?

Scoring runs means you are forgiven anything. But now that he is struggling with back injuries, as well as poor form, better fitness can only help in both respects.

 

[Jono]

Haha...
I think Karthik got a raw deal ITFP, TBH. If he'd been given a longer run, I reckon he'd have ended-up getting consistent runs in Tests.
Hope he gets another chance.

Yeah he wasn't dropped for doing anything wrong, it was rather Dhoni was included for his fantastic ODI record and form in the SL ODI series. When you look at the SL test series, he did play some useful innings so no one was complaining, but Karthik was definitely hard done by.

 

[Sanz]

Bring Back Parthiv Patel, at least he could bat.

 

[Richard]

I was kind of kidding with Aakash Chopra. He was cool though Plus Sehwag seemed to like him, he batted very well with him and they had awesome opening partnerships, something which hasn't happened for a while (Leaving behind the 400+ one between Sehwag and Dravid on that pancake road against Pakistan). I'm willing to give Jaffer some time, far too early to dismiss him.

Well... I might remind you that Jaffer has played 10 Tests (19 innings).
Before too much longer it'll be time to dismiss him unless he does something a bit more convincing than scoring runs in a single game.

Can I ask why you have never rated Kaif? I'm not trying to get into an argument or anything, I'd just like to know because he's been one of my pet 'favourite' players for at least 3 years now so I'm just interested in why you don't see him as a talent.

I've not often been impressed with his Test form, and his First-Class record is unexceptional by Indian standards (most of the best players average over 50).
I certainly like him in ODIs, have done ever since NWS2002.

Yuvraj has still shown too much lately to be simply dismissed yet on his past 2 tests. Plus, I hardly think his dismissal in the 2nd test against England was his fault. He played a cracking shot, and Bell took an unbelieavable catch. I thought that was 4 from the moment he hit it. His 2nd test however obviously was poor, but at the same time look at the shots he was hitting in the 1st innings. The talent is there, its so obvious... and barring a few instances where he does play a stupid shot his temperament is improving.

True... but we've seen plenty of players in his mould flatter to deceive in Tests. I'm not going to clamour for his removal... yet... but if he keeps failing to score runs he can't remain.
To say that he didn't do too much wrong in the Second Test is fair enough... but if he'd hit the ball on the ground it'd just have been a brilliant stop, not a catch.

 

[wpdavid]

But... yes, you guessed it... it was... a ODI.
Not a Test.
I've always rated both highly in ODIs, Kaif since that game, Yuvraj from his debut.
Kaif made his Test debut, incidentally, a full 2 years before he made his ODI debut against us in India - was apparently well worked-over by Donald, Klusener, Pollock, Hayward et al in the first series India lost at home to a non-subcontinental team for about 15 years or something. Since then he's often been in-and-out, has played the odd good knock (such as against Aus in the farce last autumn) but mostly has done nothing in Tests.
And with his unimpressive First-Class record it doesn't really surprise me.

Turns out that Kaif has played 9 tests over a period of 6 years, averaging about 26.
I reckon that a 19 year old is entitled to struggle against the SA attack of that era, and I certainly wouldn't want to write a 25 year old off after a handful of in & out appearances. As you know, we've seen far too much of that ourselves. As for the ODI/test thing, I know they're not the same, but sometimes you just think that a young player has shown that they have something whatever the format of the game. His couple of half centuries against Aus also suggetsed a bit of character, given that the rest of the side was doing not a lot. Of course, he was never going to feature very much when SRT, Dravid, Laxman & Ganguly were available and in any sort of form, but clearly that era is coming to an end. Anyway, as I'm probably digging a hole for myself, as I really don't know enough about the alternatives.