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Can someone explain the Mumbai Disaster, please?

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
steds said:
Please. You aren't showing the real Shaun Udal.





is more like it.
Hopefully now Udal won't cop such an utterly absurd amount of totally unfair flak as he has following Pakistan.
 

adharcric

International Coach
I'd rather drop Sehwag than put him at 6, because that means Kaif and Yuvraj are automatically out. Fielding would be even worse, if that's possible with this unit.
 

adharcric

International Coach
If Jaffer can't be a solid short-leg for us, Gambhir might be a better option. Yes, having a good short-leg is THAT important for us. Kaif and Yuvraj are clearly wasted at that position.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
adharcric said:
We were cruising at lunch with Dravid steady and Tendulkar looking like he had regained some confidence. Then Dravid gone to a regulation ball outside off and Tendulkar caught off Udal (...). I leave the computer for 2 minutes and come back to see Dhoni walking in, I don't even want to know what Sehwag did. Then Dhoni was absolutely ludicrous. Harbhajan isn't a genuine batsman but he's certainly better than that mad slog to Hoggard.

England bowled well early on but apart from the Kumble & Jaffer dismissals, we blunted that rather well. Then what the hell happened at the end? What should we do about Sehwag? What should we do about Dhoni? Clearly, Laxman would be welcome now that Tendulkar is out for a while and the famed lineup commited suicide in dramatic fashion.
What about Kaif? Raina anyone?
I have changed little. I still don't really think Wasim Jaffer is a Test-class batsman.
Mahendra Dhoni needs the same thing as Kevin Pietersen. How can someone play so, so incredibly sensibly early on in their international career then degenerate to such pathetic standards of arial-hitting? It just baffles belief.
What did Sehwag do? Get injured.
Frankly - with this line-up a collapse was always on the cards. It's all well and good saying "India's is the most famed and feared batting in The World" - well, not when Laxman and Ganguly are dropped and Sehwag can barely move, it's not. It's a shambles. I am starting to have serious reservations about Yuvraj as a Test batsman, have never rated Kaif and Raina's still, what, 19?
Will maybe take a while to sort this out, and if Laxman is not recalled I can see disaster sometime soon.
At least the bowling was great. Then again, that was wasted by the pathetic fielding, which included world-class fielders like Yuvraj and Dravid. Hopefully "class is permanent, form is temporary" applies to fielding as well.
Yuvraj has only ever been a class fielder in the outfield. He's never been much of a close-catcher, especially to the spinners.
I was amazed at some of Dravid's lackadaisacalability, though.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
Richard said:
No shot should ever cost someone their career.
But I agree it was one of the most breathtakingly stupid acts we've ever seen.
Up there with Campbell-Hick at The Oval in 2000.

I think there needs to be a message delievered to all shot makers who care more about landing an endorsement deal by playing shots rather than winning. I am not saying Dhoni necessarily lies in this group, but for far too long Indian batsman have gone for personal glory when the team needed a more sane approach. This has been more than little responsible for the batting displays overseas, where discretion is most certainly the better part of valor.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
adharcric said:
I'd rather drop Sehwag than put him at 6, because that means Kaif and Yuvraj are automatically out. Fielding would be even worse, if that's possible with this unit.
Surely you can't justify Kaif and Yuvraj playing purely as outfielders?
Sure enough neither are great close-catchers, and that's far, far more important than outfielding in Tests.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
adharcric said:
If Jaffer can't be a solid short-leg for us, Gambhir might be a better option. Yes, having a good short-leg is THAT important for us.
Oh, quite. A good close-catching cordon (slip, short-leg, silly-point, sometimes gully) are so, so important to a quality spin-attack.
Weren't the catchers of Bedi, Chandra, Prasanna and Venkat almost as legendary as the bowlers themselves?
 

adharcric

International Coach
Richard said:
Surely you can't justify Kaif and Yuvraj playing purely as outfielders?
Sure enough neither are great close-catchers, and that's far, far more important than outfielding in Tests.
Well I think they are both batting better than Sehwag at the moment as well. Yuvraj was doing very well until these past two tests against England, played some really lazy shots. Must be getting badly influenced by the rest.
 

wpdavid

Hall of Fame Member
Richard said:
Oh, quite. A good close-catching cordon (slip, short-leg, silly-point, sometimes gully) are so, so important to a quality spin-attack.
Weren't the catchers of Bedi, Chandra, Prasanna and Venkat almost as legendary as the bowlers themselves?
Solkar, in particular was.

Interested that you sort of dismissed Kaif in an earlier post, since he was about the only middle order batsman apart from Dravid to show any application in this series.
Admittedly I haven't followed India cricket too closely, so for all I know he might be averaging about 25, but given what we've seen in the last 3 tests I really don't understand why he was dropped.
 

steds

Hall of Fame Member
Richard said:
Hopefully now Udal won't cop such an utterly absurd amount of totally unfair flak as he has following Pakistan.
You kept dishing it out to Harmison after the West Indies, what's the difference?
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
wpdavid said:
Solkar, in particular was.

Interested that you sort of dismissed Kaif in an earlier post, since he was about the only middle order batsman apart from Dravid to show any application in this series.
Admittedly I haven't followed India cricket too closely, so for all I know he might be averaging about 25, but given what we've seen in the last 3 tests I really don't understand why he was dropped.

The way I see it, we need Kaif. He doesn't have extravagant shots, and right now, thats a good thing.

Batting line up of Chopra, Jaffer, Dravid*, Kaif, Raina, and Karthik+ for the WI tour, just to send a message.
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
Drop Greg Chappell. ;) We have had enough of his tricks, now get some real coach, someone who knows coaching and not a trick master.

Indian Cricketers are fatter than ever, cant catch, cant field, cant bat.
 

adharcric

International Coach
silentstriker said:
The way I see it, we need Kaif. He doesn't have extravagant shots, and right now, thats a good thing.

Batting line up of Chopra, Jaffer, Dravid*, Kaif, Raina, and Karthik+ for the WI tour, just to send a message.
Haha that would be so damn hilarous. Seriously though, not Chopra, Gambhir maybe? Yuvraj hasn't done that poorly. Laxman should be back no?
Jaffer, Gambhir, Dravid*, Laxman, Yuvraj, Kaif, Karthik+, Pathan/Harbhajan, Kumble, Sreesanth, Munaf
 

adharcric

International Coach
Sanz said:
Drop Greg Chappell. ;) We have had enough of his tricks, now get some real coach, someone who knows coaching and not a trick master.

Indian Cricketers are fatter than ever, cant catch, cant field, cant bat.
be positive.
they can ... slog mindlessly, **** me off and bowl
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
silentstriker said:
I think there needs to be a message delievered to all shot makers who care more about landing an endorsement deal by playing shots rather than winning. I am not saying Dhoni necessarily lies in this group, but for far too long Indian batsman have gone for personal glory when the team needed a more sane approach. This has been more than little responsible for the batting displays overseas, where discretion is most certainly the better part of valor.
TBF there's no way the game was ever going to be saved then. India's only chance of avoiding defeat was to gamble on inducing panic and going for the win. Once Dravid was out the game was going to have a result IMO.
In saying that I'm not contending that Dhoni's response was, as I say, anything other than so stupid as to strain belief - and I suppose I can see where you're coming from. No-one will sponsor\endorse a player who's not in the national team.
I'd be interested to hear some examples of Indian players who played abysmally overseas due to being more interested in enhancing their reputation as strokeplayers than scoring runs. Srikkanth?
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
adharcric said:
Haha that would be so damn hilarous. Seriously though, not Chopra, Gambhir maybe? Yuvraj hasn't done that poorly. Laxman should be back no?
Jaffer, Gambhir, Dravid*, Laxman, Yuvraj, Kaif, Karthik+, Pathan/Harbhajan, Kumble, Sreesanth, Munaf
Gambhir is a more attacking type batsman than Chopra. As someone else said, Chopra's favorite shot is the 'leave', and we need someone like that. After I just replayed Dhoni's shot last night, I would be happier if India were collectively all out for 0 (2000). At least that way, the match would be a draw.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
adharcric said:
Well I think they are both batting better than Sehwag at the moment as well. Yuvraj was doing very well until these past two tests against England, played some really lazy shots. Must be getting badly influenced by the rest.
Sehwag who scored a double-century, what, 2 months ago? Less?
(Dropped 50 times or so, yes, but that's par-for-the-course in Sehwag-vs-Pakistan)
I refuse to believe that Kaif can ever bat better than Sehwag.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
wpdavid said:
Solkar, in particular was.

Interested that you sort of dismissed Kaif in an earlier post, since he was about the only middle order batsman apart from Dravid to show any application in this series.
Admittedly I haven't followed India cricket too closely, so for all I know he might be averaging about 25, but given what we've seen in the last 3 tests I really don't understand why he was dropped.
Neither do I - it was an absolute sitter by Flintoff standards.
If he'd caught it I'd not be amazed if Kaif's Test career was over.
Kaif's average, by Indian standards, is poor - late 30s, early 40s (most of the best batsmen average over 50).
I've never understood why he's anywhere near the Test team. His fielding, surely, must have had some influence but I don't really know why because he's clearly a good outfielder, not close-catcher, and close-catching is the important thing in Tests.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
Richard said:
Sehwag who scored a double-century, what, 2 months ago? Less?
(Dropped 50 times or so, yes, but that's par-for-the-course in Sehwag-vs-Pakistan)
I refuse to believe that Kaif can ever bat better than Sehwag.

Sehwag needs to work very hard on his fitness. He needs to drop at least 20 pounds...you shouldn't see a beer belly potruding on a 27 year old cricketer. Did you see him running after that flintoff boundry? My grandmother walks faster than that (with a walker).
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
steds said:
You kept dishing it out to Harmison after the West Indies, what's the difference?
Err... eh?
I backed myself that a player was not as good as everyone was saying, and I was proven right.
I've also backed myself that Udal is not as poor as people have claimed following Pakistan. I said that no-one would've succeeded on those pitches.
I said Udal might just be useful on a turner and, when he finally played on one, I was actually proven right. Udal did turn the ball, considerably, this Test. And he produced some excellent deliveries, the best being the one that took Tendulkar's wicket.
 

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