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Thread: Is Imran one of the 10 best bowlers ever?

  1. #91
    Cricketer Of The Year Anil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C_C
    I've seen Lillee bowl in tests a few times and i am of the opinion that i would take Holding,Marshall,Garner, Imran and Hadlee over him.
    i personally rated marshall higher than lillee for a couple of reasons: his ability to generate that furious pace from a pacy runup and a wiry frame but a surprising 5'10" height, his wonderful consistency and amazing determination and persistence which in my opinion surpasses that of lillee's....but in my opinion, hadlee is at the same level and the others listed above are one step below him....
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  2. #92
    Cricketer Of The Year Anil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C_C
    No, intangiable is something that cannot be accurately measured.
    And as i said, reputations are valid if they are supported by facts.
    Fact is, Lillee had green tops all his life and as such, played in the perfect conditions - no different than Kumble in India. As such, if Lillee is in contention for the greatest, so is Kumble as we should just ignore his overseas record and judge him by his performance on tailormade wickets. I notice that no one is willing to take me up on that line of thought.
    don't exaggerate...ok? the guy played 70 tests....65 of those tests were played in australia(44 tests at 23.73), england(16 tests at 20.56) and new zealand(5 tests at 22.50). the remaining 5 tests were played against pakistan(3 tests at 101.00), west indies(1 test at -) and sri lanka(1 test at 35.66), if you take most great bowlers' careers, there will be some tests where they were not successful....if they go on to play the same side again, eventually those "blemishes" in their records are evened out....if you judge lillee based on these 5 tests and just dismiss 65 tests of some of the greatest fast bowling ever seen as of little consequence(as in, "oh they were all greentops, perfect for fast bowling, lillee just had to run in and bowl, the pitch did all the tricks for him"), you are in one stroke botching up the results so badly they are not results anymore, just sad conjurations of a biased mind....

    to take you up on your kumble line of thought, the reason why that doesn't wash is simply this, lillee probably played 4 or 5 tests out of 70 in unfamiliar conditions and did not do well, kumble played 50 out of 104 tests outside of india, ie almost 50%. he did do well sometimes especially in the past couple of years but overall has a very unsatisfactory record compared to his home record....you cannot compare the two because of the huge difference in the number of tests in "unfriendly conditions"....of course if you are willing to extrapolate the 5 test record to a 50 test record and then compare.....there is really nothing to say, you are on your own......
    Last edited by Anil; 08-03-2006 at 09:50 PM.

  3. #93
    International Coach adharcric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C_C
    No, intangiable is something that cannot be accurately measured.
    And as i said, reputations are valid if they are supported by facts.
    Fact is, Lillee had green tops all his life and as such, played in the perfect conditions - no different than Kumble in India. As such, if Lillee is in contention for the greatest, so is Kumble as we should just ignore his overseas record and judge him by his performance on tailormade wickets. I notice that no one is willing to take me up on that line of thought.
    You've definitely got a point in saying that a bowler can't be considered one of the best ever unless he is tested in all conditions. But when Lillee's only done poorly in THREE tests in Pakistan, that's more likely to be an "off series" than a case of "being exposed by subcontinental tracks". If he had been a consistent failure in the subcontinent, that would mean something. Again, it's all about consistency.

    Besides, if he was really a "green-top bully", don't you think we would've heard floating rumors about that at some point. For example, today people sometimes regard Hoggard as a green-top performer and Yousuf as a flat-track bully .. so there could be some truth to those claims (well, obviously not the first after Hoggy ran through my guys the other day). But has any player or other cricketing mind ever thought that Lillee wasn't one of the best ever simply because of his poor 3-match record in Pakistan? Obviously that means that the record isn't much more than a semi-trivial statistic in the larger scheme of things.
    Last edited by adharcric; 08-03-2006 at 09:44 PM.

  4. #94
    C_C
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    you are in one stroke botching up the results so badly they are not results anymore, just sad conjurations of a biased mind....
    NO !!

    Argh.

    Nevermind. I tire of arguing and you are just not understanding what i am trying to say.

    This is pointless


  5. #95
    State Vice-Captain Francis's Avatar
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    I'll only say one last thing.

    If anybody thinks Lillee only played on great seamers wicket in Australia, your wrong and many testimonies go into that. People think of Australia and they think of that Perth wicket that Lillee and Thommo were scary on. Lillee's best ground in Australia was the MCG. Based on average it's the GABBA, but he played mroe games at the MCG and took many more fivers. Stories of how he played on the MCG came into discussion on EPSN's Legends of Cricket. There's a tiny feature on how the pitch in the centenary test smoothened out on day three and people wanted a result for the queen. Lillee took a tenfer on a pitch that gave nothing to fast bowlers. Allan Davidson talked somewhat in depth on it. Then there's another game from the MCG in the 80s they talk about, and I think it was Bob Willis, who said Lillee bowled great at the MCG because conditions were horrid there for fast bowling and Lillee bowled his best when things were against him.

    The MCG is brought up quite a bit actually... and from what was told, is was one of the more unresponsive wickets in Australia for fast bowling. England isn't always a seamers paradise. Lillee played plenty there and yet places like Trentbride often produce high scores. The Oval does too.

    Personally it doesn't suprise me that he hasn't got the best record in Perth because, on a pitch like that, a small nick with his pace could easily go for four. You could argue that despite having a few good seaming wickets, there were also some fast wickets and faster outfields. I don't know, I'm not going to guess, which is what some people have done.

    On that same show the last few minutes were in discussion of how good Lillee was in bad conditions and how he used conditions better than anybody ever. This entire thing about bowling on bad pitches comes off barely a handful of subcontinent matches. I don't think people should be judging on such limited chances. Lillee never played in India or Sri Lanka... only Pakistan and he has three matches there. Not much to go on. There are, however, bad seaming wickets around the world, and reputations don't build themselves without testimonies.

    There was talk of him being the real MOTM in the centenary test and how people thought it was an injustice because he got a tenfer on a completely unresponsive wicket.

    What's funny is that when Legends of Cricket did a piece on Malcolm Marshall, he got high praise for bowling on bad wickets, and do you know where those wickets were? Australia. They told stories about the SCG and how the ball never gave any bounce above stump height, yet Marshall did it. Then they talk about how one of Marshall's goals was to perform well on Australian wickets because he felt they were a stamp of approval that you can play well on varying pitches.

    This idea that Australia is only seaming wickets is nothing more than a guess... maybe an educated guess since that Perth pitch is renound for pace. But testimonies eliminate all guessing.

    Lillee was good on bad wickets. Nobody here knows how well each certain wicket played. I didn't know the MCG produced some horrid seaming wickets until I heard testimonies. I don't know if Old Trafford was good for seaming one day and bad the next. Nobody can guess that Lillee played on just great wickets for seaming because the same wicket can play different ways in different series. Do you know how we can know though? By listening to the people who actually saw him play, and they can give us stories of him on good and bad wickets and the jury is in: A rash of people have praised Lillee as the best fast bowler on bad wickets.


    So if "intangible" means guessing about Lillee's bowling on pitches when there are people who actually saw him and say otherwise with backed up stories... well...
    Last edited by Francis; 08-03-2006 at 11:50 PM.

  6. #96
    State Vice-Captain Francis's Avatar
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    "The MCG brought out the best in DK, because he would just not give you anything on bad wickets." - Bob Willis

  7. #97
    International Coach adharcric's Avatar
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    That should just about seal the deal. Well said.

  8. #98
    C_C
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    Just like 'unresponsive to spin' in New Zealand is a whole different story than 'unresponsive to spin' in the subcontinent, ' unresponsive to pace' in subcontinent is a whole different story than 'unresponsive to pace' in Australia or England.
    The Oval wicket or MCG has nothing on places like Kotla when it comes to 'non responsive to pace'.

  9. #99
    Hall of Fame Member FaaipDeOiad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C_C
    Just like 'unresponsive to spin' in New Zealand is a whole different story than 'unresponsive to spin' in the subcontinent, ' unresponsive to pace' in subcontinent is a whole different story than 'unresponsive to pace' in Australia or England.
    The Oval wicket or MCG has nothing on places like Kotla when it comes to 'non responsive to pace'.
    That's really not true at all. The pitches in the Australian home series against India in 2003/04 were less seam-friendly than those in India in the return series... indeed Nagpur was comfortably the best seam bowling pitch of the lot, while the wickets in Australia were universally roads. It might be true more or less that the worst pitches appear in the subcontinent, but that doesn't mean that wickets like the Adelaide Oval, The Oval in England, Antigua in the West Indies and so on aren't just as dead for seamers as wickets in the subcontinent generally are.

    Your argument that the only place in the world that Lillee could have come across unresponsive pitches is the subcontinent is totally bogus, and if nothing else, the Malcolm Marshall quotes that Francis provided show that.
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  10. #100
    Eyes not spreadsheets marc71178's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C_C
    I too would have a very high opinion of Akhtar as the greatest pacer of the last 20 years if i faced him consistently on Perth greentops ala 70s and 80s.
    Lillee @ Perth:

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  11. #101
    C_C
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    Quote Originally Posted by FaaipDeOiad
    That's really not true at all. The pitches in the Australian home series against India in 2003/04 were less seam-friendly than those in India in the return series... indeed Nagpur was comfortably the best seam bowling pitch of the lot, while the wickets in Australia were universally roads. It might be true more or less that the worst pitches appear in the subcontinent, but that doesn't mean that wickets like the Adelaide Oval, The Oval in England, Antigua in the West Indies and so on aren't just as dead for seamers as wickets in the subcontinent generally are.

    Your argument that the only place in the world that Lillee could have come across unresponsive pitches is the subcontinent is totally bogus, and if nothing else, the Malcolm Marshall quotes that Francis provided show that.

    Umm. We are talking the 70s and 80s here.
    Almost every single wicket in OZ or England- to this day- has decent support for pacers - there is consistent bounce and carry at the very least.
    In the subcontinent back in the 70s and 80s the ball often didnt rise above hip-height and the pitches were typical 'Kotla pitches' - low,slow and devoid of any lateral movement.

    The kind of pitches Lillee bowled on most of the time are dreams of pacers today - the 70s and 80s era saw some of the fastest wickets in the world - Perth was much faster, Lords was more hostile, Brisbane was a positive green-top, etc.
    As such, the best pitches for pace in the subcontinent were akin to bottom 20% of pace-friendly wickets in Eng-Aus-Nz.

    I am sorry but 'unhelpful' was not the word i would choose to depict Eng-Aus-NZ wickets in the 70s.

  12. #102
    International Captain Swervy's Avatar
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    lets face it, CC's arguement is based on opinion of a player he never saw play live and I suspect has only seen clips of. He has a preconceived idea of Lillee based on the stats of that one Pakistan series, and because the stats say he bowled crap, then it must mean he was a crap bowler on flat wickets, despite what Imran Khan actually said about him on that tour ....

    As someone who saw him play in the late 70's early 80's I can categorically say that Lillee as an opening bowler he was about as good as you would get. His control was only rivalled by Hadlee and marshall (at his best), a bowler of great competitiveness and intelligence.

    His 7 wicket haul vs WI in 1981 was about as good as you will ever see against a very strong batting line up, and that first 3 wickets he took in that innings was electrifying...the ONLY time I have ever seen Richards completely baffled and shaken up by fast bowling.
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  13. #103
    International Captain Swervy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C_C
    Umm. We are talking the 70s and 80s here.
    Almost every single wicket in OZ or England- to this day- has decent support for pacers - there is consistent bounce and carry at the very least.
    In the subcontinent back in the 70s and 80s the ball often didnt rise above hip-height and the pitches were typical 'Kotla pitches' - low,slow and devoid of any lateral movement.

    The kind of pitches Lillee bowled on most of the time are dreams of pacers today - the 70s and 80s era saw some of the fastest wickets in the world - Perth was much faster, Lords was more hostile, Brisbane was a positive green-top, etc.
    As such, the best pitches for pace in the subcontinent were akin to bottom 20% of pace-friendly wickets in Eng-Aus-Nz.

    I am sorry but 'unhelpful' was not the word i would choose to depict Eng-Aus-NZ wickets in the 70s.
    I wouldnt say Brisbane was a 'positive green top', it offered good bowlers something, but it has always given a batsman a chance as well, something a green top never does

  14. #104
    C_C
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swervy
    I wouldnt say Brisbane was a 'positive green top', it offered good bowlers something, but it has always given a batsman a chance as well, something a green top never does
    My whole point is, a wicket that gives 'good pace bowlers something and batsmen a chance as well' is a positive greentop in comparison to most wickets today and the wickets in the subcontinent 20-30 years ago.

    His control was only rivalled by Hadlee and marshall (at his best), a bowler of great competitiveness and intelligence.
    Is that why Lillee got carted around so often ? There are quite a few performances by Lillee where he was tonked outta the attack.

    . He has a preconceived idea of Lillee based on the stats of that one Pakistan series, and because the stats say he bowled crap, then it must mean he was a crap bowler on flat wickets, despite what Imran Khan actually said about him on that tour ....
    He is unproven on flat wickets and his record is composed almost entirely of playing on the prime pace wickets around the world - just as Kumble's awesome home record is compiled on prime spin wickets around the world ( and as Lillee, it doesnt mean Kumble hasnt come across the occasional spin-unfriendly tracks in the subcontinent either).

    Lillee played to his strengths by sticking to wickets where pace bowling was easiest.
    Thats the fact you can glean from the scoresheets.
    Opinions are like the opening down under - everyone has one.

    Factual interpretation is what i've said above - that Lillee's performance came at the height of pacy wickets and total unproven/****ty record on unfriendly wickets.
    Lillee was also never tested in the backyard of the strongest batting lineup of his time - the West Indies.
    If Kumble or murali didnt play OZ in OZ ( strongest batting lineup in our times) their records would be a damn sight better too.

    And before you accuse me of bias, consider this - i consider McGrath to be amongst the top 5 pacers alltime ( who for me is too close a call between Marshall, hadlee, Imran, McGrath and Ambrose), Warne as the second-best spinner of alltime and Greg Chappell as one of the top 10 batsmen of alltime.

    I see facts and facts show Marshall, Imran, Hadlee, McGrath, Ambrose, etc. significantly more accomplished than Lillee.

    PS: I've seen highlights of that spell by Lillee - and i've seen Richards facing a rampant Akram- if there was a pacer who gave Richards trouble consistently, it was Akram. Not Lillee - Lillee had the ability to turn in some of the best performances in pace bowling but he lacked the consistency ( which i rate far higher than the occasional 8-30 figure followed by 2-80 off 20) the abovementioned bowlers did.
    Last edited by C_C; 09-03-2006 at 03:12 AM.

  15. #105
    International Captain Swervy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C_C
    My whole point is, a wicket that gives 'good bowlers something and batsmen a chance as well' is a positive greentop by most wickets today and the wickets in the subcontinent 20-30 years ago.
    well I think there are plenty of wickets around the world that give something to good bowling these days.



    Quote Originally Posted by C_C
    Is that why Lillee got carted around so often ? There are quite a few performances by Lillee where he was tonked outta the attack.
    OK..care to name a bowler who hasnt been gotten hold of at sometime...you tell me about any of those that you know for a fact that he was ripped apart by the batting team simply because he was bowling crap
    Lillee in fact rarely bowled without success



    Quote Originally Posted by C_C
    He is unproven on flat wickets and his record is composed almost entirely of playing on the prime pace wickets around the world - just as Kumble's awesome home record is compiled on prime spin wickets around the world ( and as Lillee, it doesnt mean Kumble hasnt come across the occasional spin-unfriendly tracks in the subcontinent either).
    You are just generalising and assuming that the only flat wickets Lillee play on were in the sub continent...Bradman proved himself in India, so what????...Viv Richards scored one hundred in 9 tests on the batting paradises of Pakistan..what does it prove, was King Viv unproven on those types of wickets...Tendulkar never really did well in Zimbabwe, does that straight away mean that he shouldnt be classed as an all time great?



    Quote Originally Posted by C_C
    Lillee played to his strengths by sticking to wickets where pace bowling was easiest.
    Thats the fact you can glean from the scoresheets.
    Opinions are like the opening down under - everyone has one.
    You make it sound as though Lillee decided to pad out his figures by not touring the subcontinent...it really wasnt like that though, there were work/business commitments etc that many players had to cope with, Lillee himself had back problems, and later on, knee problems, a sub continent tour isnt the best thing to do with those types of conditions etc etc.

    No you cant glean the ALL THE FACTS from a scorecard...a scorecard in fact doesnt tell you how well a bowler has bowled, it doesnt tell you the condition of the pitch at various time of a game etc....you are judging the career of a player who played for his country for over a decade on the fact that he didnt get good figures on a tour where it was like bowling on concrete, and where the premier bowler of the oppostion actually stated he bowled with class on that tour

    Quote Originally Posted by C_C
    Factual interpretation is what i've said above - that Lillee's performance came at the height of pacy wickets and total unproven/****ty record on unfriendly wickets.
    Lillee was also never tested in the backyard of the strongest batting lineup of his time - the West Indies.
    If Kumble or murali didnt play OZ in OZ ( strongest batting lineup in our times) their records would be a damn sight better too.

    And before you accuse me of bias, consider this - i consider McGrath to be amongst the top 5 pacers alltime ( who for me is too close a call between Marshall, hadlee, Imran, McGrath and Ambrose), Warne as the second-best spinner of alltime and Greg Chappell as one of the top 10 batsmen of alltime.

    I see facts and facts show Marshall, Imran, Hadlee, McGrath, Ambrose, etc. significantly more accomplished than Lillee.

    yeah well its how YOU interpret the facts...without actually seeing how most of those players actually played. Just becuase you interpret those fact in a certain way, doesnt actually mean you have interpreted them correctly

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