Is Imran one of the 10 best bowlers ever?

[C_C]

Originally Posted by Francis

Lillee has more reputation than substance in my opinion...doesnt take away from the fact that he was an alltime great bowler but its similar to overhyping Ronaldinho to be in Pele's class. Lillee's record against the best batting lineup of his time (the WI) is modest.

I dont wish to get into the same arguments again and again.
I rate Lillee below the bowlers i've named because my rating criteria for pacers are : overall performance, performance away from home, performance in the subcontinent, performance against the best of the best and support had.
Lillee comes out of the top 10 for me and despite the 'reputation' he has, i believe this is one instance of image considerably inflating the stock.. just the sheer fact that he was the first Aussie/English bowler since Trueman to be truely worldclass pacer and came on before any other pacer of the 70s/80s were around(with the exception of Roberts) truly adds to his hype.
I've seen Lillee bowl quite a bit from clips and stuff....IMO he was a more consistent version of Akhtar and would be in the top 20 for me...still an alltime great...just like Akhtar would be if he could remain bloody fit.

[SJS]

Originally Posted by Tom Halsey

Except statistics aren't the be-all-and-end-all.

.

Thats true.

but..

those who call Imran a better all rounder than Sobers build the case around statistics too.

I am not arguing here whether or not Imran is amongst the top 10 bowlers or whether or not he is the greatest all rounder just talking of stats.

BTW, I believe that Imran would get into any great bowlers list. I have seen him bowl in every series he played in India and most others on TV. He was a phenomenal bowler. At his peak he looked almost unplayable but I think calling him the greatest all rounder is stretching it a bit too far and this case is built PURELY around stats.

Imran was a great bowler even without his great stats. And he wasnt a better all rounder than Sobers INSPITE of what appear to be better stats.

Second greatest cricketer of all time....well ...what can one say....redefine bias please.

[Anil]

i would rank imran as the 2nd greatest allrounder ever...and he was certainly a fantastic fast bowler in his prime, but one of the 10 greatest bowlers ever, not just fast bowlers....i don't think so....

[SJS]

Originally Posted by Anil

i would rank imran as the 2nd greatest allrounder ever...and he was certainly a fantastic fast bowler in his prime, but one of the 10 greatest bowlers ever, not just fast bowlers....i don't think so....

Hey Anil,

Whats with that signature ?

Of course it tells which style of keyboard you are using

[Anil]

Originally Posted by C_C

I've seen Lillee bowl quite a bit from clips and stuff....IMO he was a more consistent version of Akhtar and would be in the top 20 for me...still an alltime great...just like Akhtar would be if he could remain bloody fit.

you are kidding...right? knowing you and your extreme examples, probably not....

[Beleg]

England, Australia and the West Indies have all produced 10 better bowlers than Imran Khan if you're talking about of all time.

Trolling for the sake of trolling isn't amusing.

[social]

Originally Posted by C_C

I've seen Lillee bowl quite a bit from clips and stuff....IMO he was a more consistent version of Akhtar and would be in the top 20 for me...still an alltime great...just like Akhtar would be if he could remain bloody fit.

Lillee is overrated, if anything, but comparing him in any way, shape or form to Akhtar is ridiculous.

Chalk and cheese, my friend.

Lillee was a master of his craft - pace, swing, seam, heart

Day in, day out Akhtar only has one of those qualities

[Beleg]

While I agree that C_C's estimation of Akhtar's worth is exaggerated - I think some of you are seriously underestimating him in turn. In face of his off field and on field shenanigans it is easy to lose sight of his bowling powers which have been on a steady incline since he came to the fore during the 98-99 season.

[honestbharani]

Originally Posted by Francis

top 10 pacers for me ( no particular order) : Wasim, Ambrose, Marshall, McGrath, Hadlee, Imran, Trueman, Donald, Davidson and Holding.

I'd wager to bet that if you asked all those bowlers who the greatest fast bowler of all time is, they'd say Dennis Lillee. Wasim and Hadlee being two I know of. I believe I heard Davidson saying the same thing about Lillee as well - the best ever. I believe Marshall thought that as well.

top 10 spinners : Murali, Warne, Bedi, Chandra, Grimmett, O'Reiley, Laker, Gibbs, Kumble, Gupte, Saqlain.

Benaud is the first noticable exclusion. Qadir probably deserves to be in... but I didn't blink seeing that you didn't put him in there.

For me Imran is the:

Best bowler of alltime
Best allrounder of alltime
but
he comes 2nd in my ranking of greatest cricketers of alltime.

I found this interesting. I don't agree with it, but I always felt Imran was closer to Sobers than people realise. Sobers was by far the better batter... but I always thought that Sobers was overrated as a bowler. I mean people said he could bowl anything... that's all and well, but was he effective? Was he one of the 50 greatest bowlers ever? Nope.

I'll put it to you this way. Is Sobers one of the ten best batsman ever? Yes. Is Imran one of the ten best bowlers ever? Yes. Is Sobers one of the 100 best bowlers ever? Possibly.. Is Imran one of the 100 best batsmen of all time? Possibly. See where I'm going? It'll always be Sobers for me though as the best all-rounder.

Anyway I think he may just squeeze in. After my top seven there are a lot of contenders... I should have included Ambrose in my original contenders. Bur I think I'd have Imran in because of what he could do with the old ball.

To be honest, the reason Sobers bowled spin (Which he was decent at, but not really good, which he apparently was as a seamer) was because there were so many seamers in the Windies side at that time and team interests dictated that one spinner was needed. And since he was decent at it and because it gave them the option of the additional pacer, he bowled spin in the latter half of his career. Now, all of the above is hearsay, and though I think the people I heard it from are credible, it is still open to be doubted. So, if anyone has facts which proves the contrary, plz let me know in this thread.

[SJS]

Originally Posted by social

Day in, day out Akhtar only has one of those qualities

......and it isnt swing or seam

[Autobahn]

Originally Posted by honestbharani

To be honest, the reason Sobers bowled spin (Which he was decent at, but not really good, which he apparently was as a seamer) was because there were so many seamers in the Windies side at that time and team interests dictated that one spinner was needed. And since he was decent at it and because it gave them the option of the additional pacer, he bowled spin in the latter half of his career. Now, all of the above is hearsay, and though I think the people I heard it from are credible, it is still open to be doubted. So, if anyone has facts which proves the contrary, plz let me know in this thread.

No i'm sure Sobers had Gibbs with him a lot or one of the other spinners at the time.

Sobers used himself more as a stock bowler when bowling pace, and let Hall and Griffith really take the attack to the batsmen, and when he bowled his spinners i remember hearing that he bowled very flat and full often trying to buy wickets.

And for me Imran Khan's batting lets him down compared to sobers.

[Swervy]

Originally Posted by C_C

Lillee has more reputation than substance in my opinion...doesnt take away from the fact that he was an alltime great bowler but its similar to overhyping Ronaldinho to be in Pele's class. Lillee's record against the best batting lineup of his time (the WI) is modest.
His record in subcontinent is abbysmal, not to mention such a brief sojourn in the subcontinent leaves a huge question mark on his performance on unfriendly pitches.
It is interesting that you take Lillee as one of the greatest ( the greatest in your opinion) and relegate Murali as 'great but not so great' despite the stats being exactly the other way round.

How many more times...Lillee only played 4 tests in the subcontinent, it is not enough to judge either way whether he was abbysmal or not, to be fair all the pace bowlers on the Pakistan tour suffered.

[social]

Originally Posted by Beleg

While I agree that C_C's estimation of Akhtar's worth is exaggerated - I think some of you are seriously underestimating him in turn. In face of his off field and on field shenanigans it is easy to lose sight of his bowling powers which have been on a steady incline since he came to the fore during the 98-99 season.

People that compare him to Lillee are seriously overestimating him.

When on song, he's a top quality bowler.

When he walks off the field, as he did vs Aus at the SCG on their last tour (basically because he'd pulled the pin - and didnt his team-mates and coach let him know how they felt), he doesnt deserve mention in the same breath as Lillee.

[Swervy]

Just noticed that CC said Lillees record vs WI was modest...what a pile of tosh, after his back problems, he was as effective against WI as probably any fast bowler of the time, it is interesting to note that during the time Lillee played, Imran Khan averaged 4 runs per wicket MORE than Lillee vs WI

[social]

Originally Posted by honestbharani

To be honest, the reason Sobers bowled spin (Which he was decent at, but not really good, which he apparently was as a seamer) was because there were so many seamers in the Windies side at that time and team interests dictated that one spinner was needed. And since he was decent at it and because it gave them the option of the additional pacer, he bowled spin in the latter half of his career. Now, all of the above is hearsay, and though I think the people I heard it from are credible, it is still open to be doubted. So, if anyone has facts which proves the contrary, plz let me know in this thread.

Sobers was originally picked to play test cricket as a spinner - other forms of bowling came about via natural talent.