The Best Leg Spinner Ever-Subhash Gupte

[DhonisOnslaught]

According to Gary Sobers The best Leg spinner ever is subhash gupte .Do you agree with him ?

http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/aus...ory/238823.html

[Francis]

Nope. Sobers only played one five-test series against India when Gupte played against him. Gupte had plenty of games where he went for over 100 and only got one or none wickets. One performance sticks out like a sore thumb and it was when Gupte got 9 wickets in an innings. I'm guessing Sobers means at his best, Gupte was the best ever... even if he only had one great game.

In which case Bob Massie is now the greatest swing bowler existed.

There's absolutely no case that Gupte was better than Warne over such a long and impressive career. The only leg-spinners that challenge Warne are O'Rielly and Grimmett.

But I think it's clear Warne's the best leg-spinner ever.

[SJS]

Originally Posted by Francis

Nope. Sobers only played one five-test series against India when Gupte played against him. Gupte had plenty of games where he went for over 100 and only got one or none wickets. One performance sticks out like a sore thumb and it was when Gupte got 9 wickets in an innings. I'm guessing Sobers means at his best, Gupte was the best ever... even if he only had one great game.

In which case Bob Massie is now the greatest swing bowler existed.

There's absolutely no case that Gupte was better than Warne over such a long and impressive career. The only leg-spinners that challenge Warne are O'Rielly and Grimmett.

But I think it's clear Warne's the best leg-spinner ever.

While many will disagree (most I should say) with Sobers contention that Gupte was the greatest leg spinner of all time, to say that he was another Bob Massie is to show complete lack of knowledge about one of the great spinners of all time.

Gupte was NOT a one innings wonder. :
He took five in an innings 12 times and on another 8 occasions had four in an innings. Considering that he played only 36 test matches, that does not make him a one test wonder.

Many consider him the greatest spinner India has produced :
Again one may not agree but considering the quality of spinners from the land that gave us Bedi, Prasanna, Chandra, Mankad and now Kumble, it speaks volumes of Gupte's caliber.

India probably dropped as many catches off Gupte as they held : One has heard old timers talk in amazement not just of Gupte's magic but of the amazingly high number of catches that India floored off his bowling. I remember talking to late Ramesh divecha about Gupte's bowling and he mentioned that while Pakistani batsmen had absolutely no clue as to which way his ball would go (1954-55) the joke going around was that the Indian fielders had no clue too. India again dropped many catches off his bowling in England in 1959.

Gupte did not last long enough in Indian cricket. He was one of the early rebels. Stories of his misdemeanours are legion. Discipline was not Gupte's strong point. But he was a great leg spinner. Better than warne or no is not for me to say but he must have been of some class for Sobers to have such high regard for him and we should at least respect that.

[Langeveldt]

How many times do I have to write "Sobers should stick to golf"?

[Richard]

I doubt Sir Garfield could do much on the golf-course any more - his knees don't look in the right state to me.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by Francis

There's absolutely no case that Gupte was better than Warne over such a long and impressive career. The only leg-spinners that challenge Warne are O'Rielly and Grimmett.

Benaud is roughly the same class according to most people; Richie feels Warne is better than he was, and most people who watched Warne and O'Reilly feel Warne was the better bowler.
Grimmett was a much different bowler to the other 3, much more comparable to someone like Abdul Qadir.
Seriously, though - aside from Abdul Qadir and Subhush Gupte - how many non-Australian wristspinners are there who've made the grade (note - I don't really include Douglas Wright, he was a pretty typical wristspinner who struggled for accuracy, or MacGill who is the same).

[Tom Halsey]

Originally Posted by Richard

Benaud is roughly the same class according to most people; Richie feels Warne is better than he was, and most people who watched Warne and O'Reilly feel Warne was the better bowler.
Grimmett was a much different bowler to the other 3, much more comparable to someone like Abdul Qadir.

If you're going to say that Grimmett was different, you've got to say that O'Reilly was different too.

O'Reilly is reported to have bowled at a pace approaching fast-medium, and hence IMO he would have been quite comparable to Kumble (although better obviously, great bowler that Kumble is) - but O'Reilly is reported to have turned it a bit too (not much though).

Warne is more a flight bowler, decieving batsmen that way rather than firing it in.

I've not read too much about Grimmett so won't comment there.

[Sanz]

Originally Posted by Langeveldt

How many times do I have to write "Sobers should stick to golf"?

May be you should stop reading his articles unless you are suggesting that he cant have an opinion.

[C_C]

Originally Posted by Tom Halsey

If you're going to say that Grimmett was different, you've got to say that O'Reilly was different too.

O'Reilly is reported to have bowled at a pace approaching fast-medium, and hence IMO he would have been quite comparable to Kumble (although better obviously, great bowler that Kumble is) - but O'Reilly is reported to have turned it a bit too (not much though).

Warne is more a flight bowler, decieving batsmen that way rather than firing it in.

I've not read too much about Grimmett so won't comment there.

From what i've read, O'Reiley was very much like McGill who bowled at a higher pace. He moved the ball massively and produced highly unplayable deliveries but was erratic.
Grimmett was the original Kumble- he rarely turned the ball more than a couple of inches and his wickets were based on line, length and an assortment of googlies and leg breaks.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by Tom Halsey

If you're going to say that Grimmett was different, you've got to say that O'Reilly was different too.

O'Reilly is reported to have bowled at a pace approaching fast-medium, and hence IMO he would have been quite comparable to Kumble (although better obviously, great bowler that Kumble is) - but O'Reilly is reported to have turned it a bit too (not much though).

Warne is more a flight bowler, decieving batsmen that way rather than firing it in.

I've not read too much about Grimmett so won't comment there.

O'Reilly was certainly quicker than your average spinner by all reports - but the fact that there were no speedguns means it's possible that change was exaggerated. Seriously - apart from Derek Underwood, how many spinners have bowled at the speed of a seamer (even Underwood was probably only in the early 70s at best)? I can't think of any successful ones, and I certainly can't conceive that someone could spin the ball and still bowl every delivery at 80mph - even Gough's slower-ball (the quickest off-break I've seen) is usually 75-76ish.
What's likely is that O'Reilly was Kumble sort of pace while being a totally different bowler - Kumble's stock-ball is the Flipper, he tends to bowl Leg-Breaks and Googlies only as alternate balls. O'Reilly by all accounts was a conventional bowler so far as spin was concerned.
Warne is according to most people who watched both a bigger spinner - even with O'Reilly playing on turning pitches. Grimmett, on the other hand, was much more a flight bowler, spinning the ball an amount comparable to Kumble or Kaneria, with only the odd ball really wripped through. Of course, in the days of uncovered wickets, you didn't need to spin the ball so much to get big turn.
Warne is probably the most skillful flight bowler of all wristspinners, as well as being a huge spinner of the ball.
Murali, of course, is different again, while using angles better than probably any other wristspinner ever. Murali, of course, doesn't really need to add loads of variation of flight to his repetoire, his bowling is more about angles than flight.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by C_C

From what i've read, O'Reiley was very much like McGill who bowled at a higher pace. He moved the ball massively and produced highly unplayable deliveries but was erratic.
Grimmett was the original Kumble- he rarely turned the ball more than a couple of inches and his wickets were based on line, length and an assortment of googlies and leg breaks.

Not to mention that Grimmett invented the Flipper, as Prasanna probably invented the Doosra.

[C_C]

Warne is probably the most skillful flight bowler of all wristspinners, as well as being a huge spinner of the ball.

I would say that the best flight of any wrist spinner i've ever seen is Qadir.
If you include flight period, it would be Bedi unquestionably.

[Tom Halsey]

Originally Posted by C_C

From what i've read, O'Reiley was very much like McGill who bowled at a higher pace. He moved the ball massively and produced highly unplayable deliveries but was erratic.

http://content-uk.cricinfo.com/ci/co...ry/154668.html

The last paragraph says "he relied primarily upon supreme accuracy of length" so I think we can say O'Reilly was reasonably accurate - this piece was written when he was playing (Wisden Cricket of the Year 1935) so it's written by someone wh in all probability saw him.

Also, this piece was written by someone who saw both Grimmett and O'Reilly back in the 30s:

http://content-uk.cricinfo.com/ci/co...ory/67769.html

He says that Grimmett turned it far more but O'Reilly was undoubtedly the better bowler. He also says that he doesn't think O'Reilly bowled a loose ball.

From what I can gather of these O'Reilly was very accurate, and turned it enough to take the edge but not huge amounts, whereas Grimmett turned it a fair bit.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by C_C

I would say that the best flight of any wrist spinner i've ever seen is Qadir.
If you include flight period, it would be Bedi unquestionably.

Obviously - fingerspinners need to use flight more than wristspinners. Bedi is generally recognised by most people as one of if not the best users of flight ever.
If Abdul Qadir was so skillful with flight I find it a little odd that his away-from-home record is so spectacularly poor as it is.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by Tom Halsey

http://content-uk.cricinfo.com/ci/co...ry/154668.html

The last paragraph says "he relied primarily upon supreme accuracy of length" so I think we can say O'Reilly was reasonably accurate - this piece was written when he was playing (Wisden Cricket of the Year 1935) so it's written by someone wh in all probability saw him.

Also, this piece was written by someone who saw both Grimmett and O'Reilly back in the 30s:

http://content-uk.cricinfo.com/ci/co...ory/67769.html

He says that Grimmett turned it far more but O'Reilly was undoubtedly the better bowler. He also says that he doesn't think O'Reilly bowled a loose ball.

From what I can gather of these O'Reilly was very accurate, and turned it enough to take the edge but not huge amounts, whereas Grimmett turned it a fair bit.

That's very interesting, because all descriptions I've heard hitherto suggested Grimmett wasn't often a particularly massive spinner of the ball, and O'Reilly generally was.