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Thorpe's replacement

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Rob Key it is then - anyone else agree that he could be the wrong man?

We now have 4 openers out of 6 batsmen, and the talk is that Vaughan may drop to 5 to accomodate Key at the top of the order.

My view is that that is very wrong as we need to establish an opening partnership between Vaughan and Trescothick, not shunt Vaughan around the order as and when we feel like it.
 

luckyeddie

Cricket Web Staff Member
As I wrote this morning when the news actually broke, it was intimated by David Graveney that he sees Robert Key as a fine batsman and not just as a fine opening batsman.

In other words, a place could well be found for him in the middle of the order (my guess is this would be later in the tour when we are getting a good pasting) and not necessarily at 1 or 2 (seems to me that Vaughan and Trescothick have those positions wrapped up at present).

Regarding whether he is the 'wrong man', the only other possible candidate would have been Ramprakash (cough).

A few names to ponder....

Graham Gooch
Dennis Amiss
Bob Barber

Started as lower or middle order batters, became famous as openers.

Len Hutton
Colin Cowdrey

Went the other way (started as openers, moved down).

There are very few players who have stayed as opening bats throughout their test careers - usually they find a position which suits them (or more likely suits the team). Who knows where that will be?
 

Neil Pickup

Cricket Web Moderator
There were no realistic alternatives...

Bell's injured
Knight's tried and failed
Ramprakash and Ward are Ramprakash and Ward

Vaughan and Trescothick shouldn't be split IMO - they are a promising pair.
 

luckyeddie

Cricket Web Staff Member
Vaughan and Trescothick shouldn't be split IMO - they are a promising pair.
I don't like waxing lyrical about England opening pairs too much, but these guys seem to have the stuff to go a long, long way.

I remember the days of Boyks and Edrich (interspersed with a bit of Cowdrey, Cowper, Milburn, Dexter even) and these two appear to be the best PAIR we have had since those days

I hope Vaughan keeps getting out in the 190's;)
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
As I wrote this morning when the news actually broke, it was intimated by David Graveney that he sees Robert Key as a fine batsman and not just as a fine opening batsman.

In other words, a place could well be found for him in the middle of the order (my guess is this would be later in the tour when we are getting a good pasting) and not necessarily at 1 or 2 (seems to me that Vaughan and Trescothick have those positions wrapped up at present).
I read Graveney suggesting that Vaughan would move into the middle order to put Key at the top of the order, that was my main worry.

I guess we'll be going in without Key to start (assuming Flintoff is fit enough for number 7.)
 

masterblaster

International Captain
How about Andrew Strauss, ive heard he's pretty good, or even Ian Blackwell as a test match all rounder, or Usman Afzaal, he got a 50 against Australia

Watching the test series between Ind and England on TV, Key didnt impress me much.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Strauss is another opener I believe.

Afzaal is another Hick/Ramps.

Blackwell's bowling is not good enough for Test level (yet)
 

Rik

Cricketer Of The Year
Well at least they arn't trying Ramps as an opener this time! Bell lost form hes a class act he just had one of those seasons from hell but he'll be back.

I'm watching for Northants' Young Opener Rob White who scored 277 at not far off a run a ball!

I really wish Pietersen could play for us at the moment, we need a real hard hitter against the aussies even if his bowlings gone to hell (why has it?) and I'm sure he could score just as quickly and much more consistantly than Flintoff!

Out of the current crop I would like to see any of Fulton, Owais Shah, Jim Troughton or Strauss in Key's place. Flintoff's batting average is less than half of Ganguly's and yet his bowling average (47) is the same, he's a constant bang it in short bowler and hardly ever tries anything different, he'd better get his bowling sorted soon!

While I'm glad to see England haven't made the mistake of going back to Croft (how can you moan to the selectors about not being picked when not only is your Test Average 37, but also your County Average!) I'm not so sure about Dawson, I mean he looked out of his depth in the last 2 India tests and had a similer season to last season in the County Championship...I couldn't see what the fuss was about when the guy averages well over 30 with the ball each season and at times his career average reached 40!

Also Giles is just not effective enough, I would choose Tufnell as he's a lot more effective and more attacking, and put someone like Schofield in the tour too as the guy came back strong from being left out of the Lancashire side and took his wickets at 20 odd and I think he could be useful as a backup bowler and also hes a very promising batsman too.

Although its strange that Brown suddenly lost all ability with the ball after going on an A-Tour and doing well and getting onto the Senior Side in Sri Lanka! I know England are low on Offspinners but Dawson is not the way to go, people say hes so impressive but he looks pretty average to me.

[Paragraphs added on 2/10/2002 by Neil!]

[Edited on 2/10/02 by Neil Pickup]
 

Top_Cat

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Dammit paragraphs man, PARAGRAPHS!!! :D

Seriously, it makes your posts difficult to read if they're in a big block like that. :)
 

luckyeddie

Cricket Web Staff Member
Apparently theres a few promising youngsters coming through from the new 'academy' or 'school of excellence' or whatever it's called at Loughborough University.

We wait in hope.

One thing I agree with which Rik wrote - Tuffers is still head and shoulders above every other English spinner.
 

Gotchya

State Vice-Captain
I always thought Thorpe was irreplaceable :alien384:


Yes well anyway, Blackwell seems to be a good choice here. What does his bowling have to do with his replacing Thorpe ???
 

Rik

Cricketer Of The Year
Maybe its because if we play Blackwell and Giles together, one might get wickets from stupid mistakes...and we know which bowler that will be - Giles doesn't seem to understand that your measured on wickets not run-rate, he even bowled leg stump and outside this summer!
 

Neil Pickup

Cricket Web Moderator
Originally posted by Rik
I'm watching for Northants' Young Opener Rob White who scored 277 at not far off a run a ball!
Yes, but that's a batsman's paradise, and he needs to do it consistently first :)

I really wish Pietersen could play for us at the moment, we need a real hard hitter against the aussies even if his bowlings gone to hell (why has it?) and I'm sure he could score just as quickly and much more consistantly than Flintoff!
Hope he doesn't turn out like Hick did, missing out due to the Qualifying period. Or that SA get him first...

Out of the current crop I would like to see any of Fulton, Owais Shah, Jim Troughton or Strauss in Key's place.
Fulton we've covered, Shah maybe, Troughton has time to bloom, Strauss is an opener and p/t wicketkeeper (maybe for ODIs after Stewart?)

Flintoff's batting average is less than half of Ganguly's and yet his bowling average (47) is the same, he's a constant bang it in short bowler and hardly ever tries anything different, he'd better get his bowling sorted soon!
That's what happens when half the games he's played are when he was unfit.

While I'm glad to see England haven't made the mistake of going back to Croft (how can you moan to the selectors about not being picked when not only is your Test Average 37, but also your County Average!)
Agreed

Also Giles is just not effective enough, I would choose Tufnell as he's a lot more effective and more attacking, and put someone like Schofield in the tour too as the guy came back strong from being left out of the Lancashire side and took his wickets at 20 odd and I think he could be useful as a backup bowler and also hes a very promising batsman too.
Tufnell's past it I'm afraid, would be a backwards step. Schofield's a maybe - is he in the Academy side?
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
I really wish Pietersen could play for us at the moment, we need a real hard hitter against the aussies even if his bowlings gone to hell (why has it?) and I'm sure he could score just as quickly and much more consistantly than Flintoff!
Hope he doesn't turn out like Hick did, missing out due to the Qualifying period. Or that SA get him first...
I think that he's declared he'll be qualifying for England.
 

Rik

Cricketer Of The Year
If Tufnells a backwards step then how can Giles or any other spinner in England (There arn't any others really) be a forwards step? Giles is already averaging worse than Tufnell did throughout his career and somethings gone majorly wrong with his batting!
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Originally posted by Rik
If Tufnells a backwards step then how can Giles or any other spinner in England (There arn't any others really) be a forwards step? Giles is already averaging worse than Tufnell did throughout his career and somethings gone majorly wrong with his batting!
Actually, his batting has improved this year - might be a bit of confidence that he's the number 1.

He has shown in patches this year that he has a lot more ability than his average suggests, but Hussain's captaincy has hit him hard, as he's been unable to bowl a decent spell with a consistent field.
 

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