Racism - Social pariah or public consensus?

[Top_Cat]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but these 'incitement of violence' and 'hate speach' legislations are a recent phenomina.

Nope. 'Acts to Endanger' has been around a VERY long time. What you're referring to are federal laws which address the cross-border nature of these crimes that state laws don't. They also have vastly different penalties, again to get past state laws. The third reason is that federal laws are used by federal agencies (ASIO, ASIS, etc.) to catch crooks that only they'd know enough about e.g. terrorists.

In any case, I think to blame the speachmaker for any such anti-semirtic scenario would be a knee-jerk easy way out of addressing the real problems and reasons for such an attack. Just my opinion.

If by blame you mean 'blame entirely' then that's probably right. There has to be a degree of responsibility, though. That degree is what gets determined in court.

 

[Top_Cat]

In the context of this thread though, it's more personal insults.. T_C, if I saw you in the street and called you an "effing White c-word".. What would a copper tell you if you tried to report me? (Assuming I just said it and kept walking).. What if I just called you an idiot?

Can cops do anything about it?

Yes and no. The severity of the offence doesn't, in this case, make a difference to whether a charge can be laid. Verbal assault is still 'assault' so if I was offended enough to have you reported, it would happen. It depends on the victim. For something like verbal assault, it would be unlikely to end up in court so a report would be made and possibly a fine handed out. No arrest (if the acts stops there) but a report would definitely result if the victim was offended enough for sure. Any copper would probably try to diffuse the situation with a few choice words but if the victim was insistent enough, a report would have to be taken.

 

[Top_Cat]

Just reading that though, that refers to published material if I read it correctly.. It doesn't appear to apply to verbal defamation..

That's right ("slander is spoken, defamation is written") but it's still tangentially-related to the topic at hand; whether someone can get in (criminal) trouble for defaming someone. And as I said, with Acts to Endanger, if stuff you say leads to trouble/unfortunate conssequences for the complainant, you'll be charged. So it's all covered in theory. In practice, a different story once the courts get involved.

 

[social]

Yes and no. The severity of the offence doesn't, in this case, make a difference to whether a charge can be laid. Verbal assault is still 'assault' so if I was offended enough to have you reported, it would happen. It depends on the victim. For something like verbal assault, it would be unlikely to end up in court so a report would be made and possibly a fine handed out. No arrest (if the acts stops there) but a report would definitely result if the victim was offended enough for sure. Any copper would probably try to diffuse the situation with a few choice words but if the victim was insistent enough, a report would have to be taken.

"Victim" can also take out an order against the "perpetrator" and have the case of assault heard via back-door means.

 

[Shounak]

Yes and no. The severity of the offence doesn't, in this case, make a difference to whether a charge can be laid. Verbal assault is still 'assault' so if I was offended enough to have you reported, it would happen. It depends on the victim. For something like verbal assault, it would be unlikely to end up in court so a report would be made and possibly a fine handed out. No arrest (if the acts stops there) but a report would definitely result if the victim was offended enough for sure. Any copper would probably try to diffuse the situation with a few choice words but if the victim was insistent enough, a report would have to be taken.

This is going off topic, but I work in a petrol station.. We had some guy jamming open the petrol pump with his fuel cap.. (So he wouldn't have to hold it)..

When we cut him off, he start sticking his finger up at us and carrying on like a chimpanzee.. Then he came into the shop and started swearing his mouth off.. Let a whole barrage of swear words loose..

He left after throwing down the money he owed..

Is there anything the cops could (or would) have charged him with? A fine or anything?

I'm askin cuz this guy was a tosser and a half.. We were going to call the cops (we had his rego), but were thinking "hmm what are we gonna tell them"..

 

[Top_Cat]

"Victim" can also take out an order against the "perpetrator" and have the case of assault heard via back-door means.

Far too many prison jokes just came to mind. Like what the victim, with sufficient criminal contacts, can organise in prison for the offender........

*slaps himself*

 

[Truekiwijoker]

If by blame you mean 'blame entirely' then that's probably right. There has to be a degree of responsibility, though. That degree is what gets determined in court.

In my eyes you could make them responsible if they said 'Attack these jews' or whatever. But if they simply said 'Jews should die', then it's a rather loose connection in my book.

 

[Truekiwijoker]

Define 'recent'.

Look up the history of the National Front in England.

Recent means contextually not so long ago.

What has the National front got to do with anything?

 

[Top_Cat]

Is there anything the cops could (or would) have charged him with? A fine or anything?

I'm askin cuz this guy was a tosser and a half.. We were going to call the cops (we had his rego), but were thinking "hmm what are we gonna tell them"..

Certainly. You can have him reported and written-up. Especially with the corroboration of your co-workers and possible surveillance footage, there's a fair bit of scope for a successful prosecution if the prosecutor wants to push it. At the court-level, considering it's a rlatively minor offences, it would likely get plea-bargained down to a fine and/or community service of some sort. But yeah, I'd say there's an offence there. Probably depend most on whether the abuse was directed at you two and by the sounds of it, it was.

 

[Top_Cat]

In my eyes you could make them responsible if they said 'Attack these jews' or whatever. But if they simply said 'Jews should die', then it's a rather loose connection in my book.

Certainly and that'd be the area of attack from the defence lawyer, I'd guess. Try to prove that 'advocacy' != incitement. It'd likely introduce enough doubt to affect the chances of success for he prosecutors. That's a tactical issue rather than points of law, though; the point remains that a person would still be able to be charged in the right circumstances. The connection between the words and subsequent acts is where the debate would start. There'd also have to be discussion about the circumstances of the speech and the agreed mindset of the crowd, etc. It all comes into it. Whether it makes much of a difference in court is too difficult to say as circumstances vary so wildly.

 

[Shounak]

Certainly. You can have him reported and written-up. Especially with the corroboration of your co-workers and possible surveillance footage, there's a fair bit of scope for a successful prosecution if the prosecutor wants to push it. At the court-level, considering it's a rlatively minor offences, it would likely get plea-bargained down to a fine and/or community service of some sort. But yeah, I'd say there's an offence there. Probably depend most on whether the abuse was directed at you two and by the sounds of it, it was.

Thanks for that. Will try and do that next time..

Although, I reckon the copper will just tell us to eff off.. They got more pressing matters to deal with..

But cheers..

 

[Top_Cat]

Although, I reckon the copper will just tell us to eff off.. They got more pressing matters to deal with..

Haha, certainly a possibility! But then again, he'd have arrest quotas and a Quick Easy Pinch might get him over the line for the month so you may be doing him a favour!

 

[Jdz]

Haven't read the whole thread but I'll comment and say

"They're sporting stars and should learn to deal with crap like that."

:/

 

[wpdavid]

Haven't read the whole thread but I'll comment and say

"They're sporting stars and should learn to deal with crap like that."

:/

Which, ultimately, is what they and others before them have done. Doesn't make it right that they should have to put up with it, though.

Interesting to see history repeating itself. In England, we had huge problems with racist abuse aimed at black footballers in the 70's and 80's. Less so in cricket, although sections of Headingley were notoriously bad.
At the time, we were told various combinations of:
a) it was only a minority
b) it was society's problem, not football's
c) actually it wasn't happening.

Of course, given that sort of approach, the problem didn't go away at all and things didn't improve until clubs accepted that actually they did have a responsibility for what went on in their grounds and started to give these morons a hard time. Nowadays, of course, this is more of a problem in the Spanish and Italian leagues, and once again we have the same heads-in-the-sand attitude from their authorities that we used to get in England.

At least the Aus cricket authorities are saying the right things. It really shouldn't be hard to identify the culprits, and it remains to be seen what will actually be done about them.

Sport cannot just blame "society" for what some of its followers get up to. On the contrary, it is an immensely powerful institution, and, if it chooses to, it can play a big part in shaping people's attitudes. In England, for far too long, we were worried about upsetting what we knew full well were rather a lot of our paying customers, so we did nothing. Regrettably, things seem no better in mainland Europe. Hopefully the Australians will actually o the right thing and send a clear message that this sort of behaviour will not be tolerated in civilise society.

 

[Scaly piscine]

I had to laugh at what The Witness is quoted as saying concerning the ICC following football's lead in taking a firm line on racism:

"I think it's something that they need to - just like FIFA - be very strong on it and keep the game clean"

He's obviously not taken much notice of the recent negligible fines meted out for atrocious racist chants by a large minority in a crowd, or when a coach called CDMs' chief poseur "a black @#!%".

 

[luckyeddie]

Recent means contextually not so long ago.

What has the National front got to do with anything?

I only used them just as an example of a bigoted, racist organisation who have a vested interest in 'freedom of speech' - if you've never heard of them, try the British National Party - another neo-fascist organisation who love free speech too.

On the other side of the fence, another person who falls into a similar category is Abu Hamsa al-Masri (Mustafa Kamel Mustafa) - his trial at the Old Bailey on 16 charges, including incitement of racial hatred and calling for the death of non-Muslims, started earlier this month. Funnily enough, he's all in favour of free speech.

And then there's football manager Mark Wright - just sacked today for 'gross misconduct' (allegedly for making derogatory, racist remarks) for the second time in his career.

Recent enough?

Beware the consequences of exercising your right to 'free speech'.

 

[C_C]

You've seen racism stemming out of the middle east, Isreal and the southern U.S.A.? seen it have you?

Either myself or members of my family have spent time in all three of those places, and neither I or them ever saw first-hand much overt racism.

I'm genuinely interested to hear your first-hand experiences...

Err. You are the first person i've met who claims there is no racism in the US and especially middle east( Israel can be lumped in it). My personal experiences are too long to get into. And perhaps that is the domain of private chatter. But down south in the US or in the rural areas(for eg. rural Pennsylvania), racism is very much alive.
I've even been asked how is it that a brown guy like me can be in engineering by one chap.
I've been to Mardi Gras once and i went down by bus (back then i used to live in Ontario). Lets just say the bus ride through Louisiana was 'interesting', filled with 'interesting' comments by the locals getting on.

And this discrimination doesn't stem from these minorities themselves? Like the animosity between Indians and Pakistanis in Britain? or the Animosity between Pakistanis and West Indians?

It doesn't occur within their countries of origin?, like Idi Amin kicking all the Hindus out of Uganda?

India-Pakistan is predominantly nationalistic animosity, not race-related. Like USA-USSR animosity in the cold war but that was hardly racism. Its pretty difficult to be racist if you are of the same 'race' of the one you are trying to antagonise. That being said, i've noticed a bit of racism from certain pakistanis towards south indians and their darker complexions.
Idi Amin and the Hindus were a case of typical sectarian BS, not racism- he did discriminate against Hindus and there were a few hindus who had married Ugandan folks- those Ugandan folks also bore the brunt of Idi Amin's madness.

Yes, racism is prevalent everywhere in the world to some degree or another. But in the west, it is much more in the forefront of the collective psyche and the west has a much more recent and comprehensive history of totally institutionalised racism- where the majority ethnicity group operated on a collective philosophy, even impacting government policy with their discrimination. And yes, while many claim that it is old history, remnants of that history is still very much around.Institutionalised racism in the west began with the oft misnamed 'age of enlightenment', back in the 1500s or so. Its been only officially disbanded in the last 30-40 years(depending on which western nation you are looking at) and as such, has a 400+ year of social presence in most western nations.
Such timespan often translates to the philosophy becomming a part of the culture- as it did. And a cultural perspective cannot be dismantled within a few decades. It needs a few generations of dilligence to exterminate.

And which major American party operates a national platform of Racism?

P.S. I had to edit this as it wouldn't let me write p_aki (????). Looks like I've spent my life using a racial slur, and never even knew it!

Republican. Check out the Jeb Bush govt. (Florida governor) simply refusing to enlist many black folks in the voter's list for the 99 election. Reason given was 'criminals shouldnt vote' but then again, i never believed that you should be stopped from voting if you are being accused of petty theft or trespassing.
US government history has a long history of racism-oriented discrimination. You can find out about it through historical sources.

 

[luckyeddie]

He's obviously not taken much notice of the recent negligible fines meted out for atrocious racist chants by a large minority in a crowd, or when a coach called CDMs' chief poseur "a black @#!%".

According to one of my contacts, the plague of racist chanting at football matches in Spain went a long way towards costing Madrid the 2012 Olympics, I'm delighted to say.

 

[Langeveldt]

Interesting thread, some good opinions, not sure what to think myself..

I guess its somewhat ironic that countries who boycotted South Africa now seem to be infested with the very attitude that SA has spent billions of rand and fifteen years trying to eradicate.. I really hope its a minority thats spoiling it in Oz, but it doesn't seem to be very minor to me.. When I hear South Africans talk about the next racial tensions being in Western Europe and Australia, I'm tending to believe them..

I'd support a SA pull out of Australian tours if this kind of stuff continues, its got the same stigma attached to a bunch of soccer hooligans using Nazi chants to a German team and I hope the authorities do what they can to stop it immediately.. I'd also be pretty ashamed if the same stuff were to happen at the Wanderers or in England..

 

[Complicated]

Interesting topic, I'm new here but decided to weigh in on this debate. As a law student in Qld so the discussion on FOS and Defamation peaked my interest. I'm impressed by Top_cats wealth of knowledge, however I'm going to disagree slightly.

Defamation isn't a good analogy for racial taunts. Because Defamation refers firstly to the publication of materials, and secondly where that material causes some form of damage, ie injuring the person or their character.

Its really surprising to hear the Free Speech arguement come up, because it doesn't really apply to Australian society. In Australia we have no Freedom of Speech rights listed in the constitution. I think people make the mistake of assuming we have a mirror of the US constitution, which we don't. The High Court implies some very limited FOS rights ie for political communication but the scope is narrow. Theres alot of legal debate that goes on, concerning just how far the government can censor the community.

I spent the last 3 months travelling through Europe, and find it surprising how quickly people jump on the bandwagon to critise. In almost every country I've travelled to you could find some element of racism. For example the Europeans are very negative to African immigrants. The only exception I found was the French who seemed to universally treat all foreigners poorly. It's also very difficult to argue it's a western phenomenon, I'd suggest people who argue that line need to travel more.

Accusations of racism can be the equivilent of loading a revolver and firing it at your foot. Firstly it gives attention to people who arn't worth additional thought. Also the moment you start branding and generalising large groups you set up camps of "you" and "us", people get agressive and hyper sentitise those issues. I've often heard South Africans argue that they shouldn't be judged becasue we don't understand the society they came from. A very good friend of mine is from SA, and talking to her I've come to understand that view is correct. It's apples and oranges. But the same thing applies to judging this incident, if you don't experience Australian culture yourself and just blanket brush it based on a media report you come across looking as abit of a bigeot.

As a side note, does anyone actually think this ICC inquiry will do anything?