Racism - Social pariah or public consensus?

[open365]

Every effort should be made to kick racism out of sport,simple as.

 

[danish]

'kaffir' is used just about as liberally in Arabic as 'f*ck' in English or 'chootiya' in Hindi/Urdu.

So pretty much before every noun and every verb or generally just to make conversation?

 

[C_C]

So pretty much before every noun and every verb or generally just to make conversation?

I am not qualified to state that- I dont understand arabic ( except for swear words and greetings ) but i've head the term used by arabic speakers quite liberally and i've heard the word 'chootiya' used often by several of my 'canadian born and bred with zero subcontinental links' friends....ofcourse they butcher the grammar while using it but then again, most common speech isnt grammatically correct to begin with.

 

[Galactic_Soap]

So your reaction to an acknowledged minority of racists is to tarnish the rest of the country with the same brush by not barracking for Australia? Your argument is muddled; do you actually believe it's a minority or do you believe an entire country is racist so the team representing the whole country (not just the racist minority) doesn't deserve your support?

I fail to see how acknowledging these racial elements has any bearing on my ability to tarnish the rest of the country, there are far greater things that Australia has yet to repent for that paints a far sadder picture (being fully aware, as I am sure you and others are, of the effect the stolen generation has had on Australia), so fear not my brush.

There is no reason as to why I should not have, and proclaim my own personal bias when it comes to cricket. I support a team because I have a strong emotional and patriotic bond with that nation. I have grown up watching South Africa burst into international cricket, and rugby. I have possibly learnt one of my biggest life lessons and watch close to 40 million South Africans learn one with me when Nelson Mandela handed the trophy to Francois Pienaar. I’ve seen how a game of sport can prove to be a powerful tool for good.

I hope I have expressed my self clearer here; lack of allegiance in a particular sport does not have any bearing on my feelings towards this country. I am happy, grateful and love living in Sydney. I am an Eels supporter to the bone. I adore my beer, and can cook and eat a pretty good steak. Don’t interpret my words as malice. I have already acknowledged the racial elements as a minority.

This is a plea to the non racial cricket loving Australian, of which they are many, I am aware this is a minority. Stand and be counted next time you hear, see or are aware of this dispicable behaviour, don't let the world judge you, because in life, as in cricket, people intepret perception as reality.

And that's pretty much exactly what I do. So do most people I know. So would you, so would most people on this board.

An entire bay of supporters shouting “Show us your passports” to the main contingent of Sri Lankan supporters is a racial taunt in my eyes. It’s a real pity that most people you know, or most of the people on the boards weren’t there then, because we sure told them to stop it.

For the record, I'm an Aboriginal/Scot whose Dad is an unfortunate member of the Stolen Generation so I think we get the gist of racism is about. The reality is that it's everywhere. Generally in the minority but in every group there is always that minority.

As for what CA is supposed to do about the current crop, do what they've always done; punish those they catch. Catching them is the tough bit. I work for the Police too so I understand how tough it is to stop any phenomena where human nature is the cuprit.

When Sri Lanka played in Sydney 2002/2003 three idiots, squirted tomato sauce onto a Sri Lankan player who was not playing that game, there was nearly an all in brawl, but the Sri Lankan section of the crowd acted in a mature way, the three were ******ed away by the security, the entire bay cheered, Aussie and Sri Lankan alike. I have numerous witnesses (Australian and Sri Lankan alike) who will attest to those three returning to their seats 20 minutes later. That confused the hell out of me.

I agree the police do some great work in Sydney, they were amazing, courageous and selfless in Cronulla, a credit to everything that is good and right in our society. You sound extremely intelligent, and you express yourself very eloquently. I’m grateful that a person of your intellect and ability to communicate is in policing.

CA should do what is right, if caught and proven guilty they must be banned for life from the ground (if identified by a player and corroborated through video evidence, and witness reports). It’s the only right thing to do, it would solve the entire argument.

I fail to see the point of this... this is heading no where productive

That’s a pretty simplistic view of an extremely important issue. All discussion in this thread has been vigorous and mature, just how it should be, that in itself is productive.

Are the current punishments tough enough? Eviction is obviously strict, but considering running on the field will cost you an arm or a leg, should continous racist remarks (not something like "I wish Gilly would hit a six here to shut this black c-word behind me up" (not that that talk is right or whatever)) should result in a frickin' heavy fine to shut them up.

Great idea. That would be a start and a step in the right direction.

From the article on Cricinfo:

"The worst incidents occurred during the Test at Perth in December when several players were called "kaffirs" and "kaffir boetties""

This definitely suggests to me that the guilty parties in question are of South African ancestry in one way or another. Even though some of us are well aware of such epithets, this is not the language that would be used by racists here without some South African history. Although this does raise another disturbing issue, one that some of us are unfortunately aware of, and that is that many prejudiced South Africans have seen fit to emigrate here (I know more than a few SA ex-pats, but I don't know of more than a minority {there's that word again, let's hope it's true} who are prejudiced), which would suggest that our society is more conducive to their feelings about racial issues, which is very disheartening to me.

Fair point, “kaffir boetties” is not something your average Australian would know, and use.

Racism is a terrible phenomena to suffer but equally, it's a horrific charge to be tarnished with if you're innocent

I agree and I am not accusing an entire country of this, again, just this incredibly vocal section of the minority.

All I've seen is exaggerated news stories, random anecdotal quotes from tangentially-related people to the teams/games and vast generalisations.

Sensationalism is rife in the Australian media. In this instance though, they have aired all the aspects of your argument in all the reports I have heard. With the main reocurring theme being: "South African expats hurl racial slurs" I just want people to be held accountable, South African expat, Australian or Sri Lankan.

This is an equal but opposite sort of rhetoric which fuels the racism in the first place because, again, the emphasis isn't on evidence but on emotive statements and instead of information 'intelligence' we have dodgy conclusions and subsequent ignorance. On both sides.

Well put, and I certainly can’t argue with that logic.

If it is indeed ex-pat South Africans they should be exposed, names published accordingly, and let them deal with the repercussions. I think all I am asking for is the need for some consequence to this madness.

Why must we close this thread? I urge admin not to, instead lets commit right here right now to reporting such incidents and pushing the issue untill there is an outcome.

Regards,

Soapy

 

[jack_sparrow]

Strictly speaking, 'kaffir' is an arabic term, which means 'unbeliever'. I understand that OZ has seen a huge rise in middle-eastern immigrants. As such, it is likely that some of the oft used arabic words are slowly becomming part of the general vocabulary with the intended connotation not changing by much.
and 'kaffir' is used just about as liberally in Arabic as 'f*ck' in English or 'chootiya' in Hindi/Urdu.

I think you are a bit ignorant of the subject in light. While the word kaffir means unbeliever in Arabic, it is also a word in South Africa and totally seperate from the Arab region.

Kaffir was originally a member of a group of Bantu-speaking people of SE Africa; it has come to be used as a contemptuous term for any person of color now.

The word kaffir (also keffir or kaffer) is a derogatory term used in South Africa for native Africans. (It was also used historically to refer to the inhabitants of South Africa during the period of colonisation, but this usage is slowly fading away. This second usage is not considered vulgar.)

It is much the same with the word 'chootiya' in Canada or Britain. More people of the general populace ( be it home grown white boys or 2nd generation east asians or even the native americans) know the meaning of that term than i've ever seen before....

Totally dead wrong. No such phenomenon in the US. The hispanics are 12 percent of the US populace, and no significant spanish words have been incorporated in American English so far...what makes you think we will believe what you are ridiculously impling. Infact I don't even know what it means.


EDIT: now i know. urban dictionary rox.

 

[C_C]

I think you are a bit ignorant of the subject in light. While the word kaffir means unbeliever in Arabic, it is also a word in South Africa and totally seperate from the Arab region.

Kaffir was originally a member of a group of Bantu-speaking people of SE Africa; it has come to be used as a contemptuous term for any person of color now.

The word kaffir (also keffir or kaffer) is a derogatory term used in South Africa for native Africans. (It was also used historically to refer to the inhabitants of South Africa during the period of colonisation, but this usage is slowly fading away. This second usage is not considered vulgar.)

yes, i am aware of the usage of the term 'Kaffir' in South Africa. However, you will find that the origin of the word is Arabic. The term 'kaffir', meaning 'unbeliever' had been applied to south african/zimbabwe natives much before the european settlers arrived- after tangyanika and zanzibar converted to Islam, they started referring to these southern areas as Kaffirs, as they had extensive trade with them, particularly in gold and incense.
Ofcourse, the arabic connotation is simply 'unbeliever' and strictly speaking, it carries no malice(though malicious intent has often been conveyed through the word). Infact you can go to regions where the non-muslims refer to themselves as kaffirs and in some places the mere mention of the word 'kaffir' is seen as derogatory.

Totally dead wrong. No such phenomenon in the US. The hispanics are 12 percent of the US populace, and no significant spanish words have been incorporated in American English so far...what makes you think we will believe what you are ridiculously impling. Infact I don't even know what it means.

Next time, step into a jewellery shop in the US and see how many lockets/bracelets are being engraved with the phrase 'Te amo/ Mi amore' (sp?)

And i am not talking about the US in this case- i've heard several english folks with zero subcontinental links use the word chootiya, particularly the ones who live around Manchester/Bradford area. I live in Vancouver, where the subcontinental base is fairly large(we have some street signs in Gurumukhi) and i've heard the word 'chootiya' being used by even 2nd gen. Korean dudes. You will find that that is how new terms often incorporate themselves into a language, particularly in a hodge-podge language such as english.

 

[luckyeddie]

.

Why must we close this thread? I urge admin not to, instead lets commit right here right now to reporting such incidents and pushing the issue untill there is an outcome.

Regards,

Soapy

If everyone made their points as eloquently and with such good manners and maturity as you have done, there would be no need whatsoever to close any threads.

 

[jack_sparrow]

yes, i am aware of the usage of the term 'Kaffir' in South Africa. However, you will find that the origin of the word is Arabic. The term 'kaffir', meaning 'unbeliever' had been applied to south african/zimbabwe natives much before the european settlers arrived- after tangyanika and zanzibar converted to Islam, they started referring to these southern areas as Kaffirs, as they had extensive trade with them, particularly in gold and incense.

My father's profession being an African Historian, leads me to my claims. The words, though amazingly similar in pronounciation have no relationship to each other. The tribe that called itself that still exists today, and predates Islam by 700 years.

Next time, step into a jewellery shop in the US and see how many lockets/bracelets are being engraved with the phrase 'Te amo/ Mi amore' (sp?)

Besides the abundance of hispanic labor everywhere here in the states, the language is strictly a simple second language. It has no incursions in American English.

And i am not talking about the US in this case- i've heard several english folks with zero subcontinental links use the word chootiya, particularly the ones who live around Manchester/Bradford area. I live in Vancouver, where the subcontinental base is fairly large(we have some street signs in Gurumukhi) and i've heard the word 'chootiya' being used by even 2nd gen. Korean dudes. You will find that that is how new terms often incorporate themselves into a language, particularly in a hodge-podge language such as english.

That is something that is your opinion. And you are admitting to it. I can't argue that its wrong, just that it probably isn't the best median to convince or inform someone.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Besides the abundance of hispanic labor everywhere here in the states, the language is strictly a simple second language. It has no incursions in American English.

I doubt that very strongly. I'm no linguist, but I can think of dozens of English words that sound like they came to us from Spanish: rodeo, pronto, taco, enchilada, aficionado, armada, bronco, embargo, guacamole, desperado, nacho, peccadillo....

Given the proximity between the US & Mexico I think it's more likely they came into English thru that route (with possible exception of armada for the obvious reason) than via English/Spanish interaction.

 

[C_C]

My father's profession being an African Historian, leads me to my claims. The words, though amazingly similar in pronounciation have no relationship to each other. The tribe that called itself that still exists today, and predates Islam by 700 years.

In that case, i withdraw my claim regarding 'kaffir'.

Besides the abundance of hispanic labor everywhere here in the states, the language is strictly a simple second language. It has no incursions in American English.

Good ol BoyBrumbie has given quite a few examples. I will leave it at that.

 

[howardj]

I dont really see the point in this thread. I think most people on here strongly condemn racism; the comments are made by an unfortunate minority; it's not something unique to cricket or to Australia; and, finally, if the Authorities can identify the people responsible, they should be booted out.

 

[social]

I dont really see the point in this thread. I think most people on here strongly condemn racism; the comments are made by an unfortunate minority; it's not something unique to cricket or to Australia; and, finally, if the Authorities can identify the people responsible, they should be booted out.

Exactly

 

[jack_sparrow]

In that case, i withdraw my claim regarding 'kaffir'.



Good ol BoyBrumbie has given quite a few examples. I will leave it at that.

You made some excellent points though. It made me see some things in a different light. Being an atheist, I suppose I am kaffir...WOOHOOO. I have an identity. jk jk.

Brumby did make a killer point, and I suppose I see where you are coming from.

 

[James]

I don't have a problem with this thread staying open providing the discussion is of a reasonable fashion.

All countries suffer from some form of racism, there's no escaping it unfortunately . You'll probably find that racists are un-educated un-employed idiots and people who I have no time for what so ever.

 

[Jono]

Well the ICC are making an official inquiry into the continued reported racism at the cricket here in Australia.

http://foxsports.news.com.au/story/0,8659,17999137-23212,00.html

Are the current punishments tough enough? Eviction is obviously strict, but considering running on the field will cost you an arm or a leg, should continous racist remarks (not something like "I wish Gilly would hit a six here to shut this black c-word behind me up" (not that that talk is right or whatever)) should result in a frickin' heavy fine to shut them up.

Sutherland said CA was contemplating introducing heavy fines – at a similar level to existing $6000 fines for running onto the ground – for racist fans and banning them from cricket venues.

Looks like Cricket Australia read my mind. This will be a positive move IMO, and should deter a large proportion of idiots from making their racial views public at a cricket match.

 

[Top_Cat]

I think if nothing else, this thread has shown that with new posters like jack_sparrow and GalacticSoap on the board, discussion can be had on a usually inflammatory topic such as this with grace, consistency and intellect. Even if that defeats the point of this thread, I'm happy to have seen it. I've personally been *****ing about the plethora of negativity on CW forums for a while now and the way this thread is going, is a sea-change. The fact we have people saying it should be closed (just because of the issue rather than what's actually been said so far) is an indicator of where threads have generally gone for a while. I think Eddie put it right;

If everyone made their points as eloquently and with such good manners and maturity as you have done, there would be no need whatsoever to close any threads.

Hear fricken' hear. For both of you.

There is no reason as to why I should not have, and proclaim my own personal bias when it comes to cricket. I support a team because I have a strong emotional and patriotic bond with that nation. I have grown up watching South Africa burst into international cricket, and rugby. I have possibly learnt one of my biggest life lessons and watch close to 40 million South Africans learn one with me when Nelson Mandela handed the trophy to Francois Pienaar. I’ve seen how a game of sport can prove to be a powerful tool for good.

I hope I have expressed my self clearer here; lack of allegiance in a particular sport does not have any bearing on my feelings towards this country. I am happy, grateful and love living in Sydney. I am an Eels supporter to the bone. I adore my beer, and can cook and eat a pretty good steak. Don’t interpret my words as malice. I have already acknowledged the racial elements as a minority.

Nah, I gotcha now. In Australia, sport = life so I made the fundamental attribution error of assuming you were referring to Australia at large initially (a side-effect of some other posters on the board; hard to avoid, sometimes). All good, other than eating steak but then I'm a vegetarian so feel free to ignore me.

When Sri Lanka played in Sydney 2002/2003 three idiots, squirted tomato sauce onto a Sri Lankan player who was not playing that game, there was nearly an all in brawl, but the Sri Lankan section of the crowd acted in a mature way, the three were ******ed away by the security, the entire bay cheered, Aussie and Sri Lankan alike. I have numerous witnesses (Australian and Sri Lankan alike) who will attest to those three returning to their seats 20 minutes later. That confused the hell out of me.

Yet another example of the yobbo mentality for sure. Certainly, throwing them out was a good idea. Shame it wasn't put into action.

That said, Police will usually only throw dude out if safety is threatened or if the racial abuse was coupled with, say, swearing. Certainly, those indulging in racism-type comments should be thrown out for the rest of the game but similarly, this should be made very clear before people enter the ground. If people THEN trangress, the justification for booting them and not just removing them from that section of the crowd is much greater.

Sensationalism is rife in the Australian media. In this instance though, they have aired all the aspects of your argument in all the reports I have heard. With the main reocurring theme being: "South African expats hurl racial slurs" I just want people to be held accountable, South African expat, Australian or Sri Lankan.

Indeed. It's a minority (racists) of a minority (SA ex-pats) causing some of the problem. The problem there is that SA ex-pats get tarnished because of the behaviour of the few too.

And as for those advocating the officials not step in, whilst I'm loathe to be over-run with adminstrative red-tape, we routinely pinch people for racial epithets in the street so why should people at a sporting event be exempt?

 

[andyc]

Just read something on cricket.com.au about this, and how Speed said, "Racism in any form is abhorrent and everyone in cricket is unhappy with the way in which players from international teams have been subjected to racist abuse in Australia." Yet they do nothing about Zimbabwe

 

[Truekiwijoker]

I went to the India versus Australia new years test, same thing, racism. Sri Lanka versus Australia where Jayasuria and Attapatu pilled on the runs in Sydney, racism. In fact the only game I’ve seen where I haven’t seen, heard, or been subjected to racism in Australia is, wait for it, South Africa versus New Zealand at the SCG.

I've watched a few Australia vs. NZ games in Aus', and I personally have had to endlessly endure these really weak and sad old sheep-shagger jokes (especially at the 'Gabba). It's quite absurd considering what a minor element bovine farming is in the entire context of NZ, but they keep trotting out the same tired old banter, and weren't to happy when we dished some out back.Almost every other NZlander I've talked too who has watched trans-tasmen events in Australia has told me of a similar experience. I think the large capacity of Australian ground and that lovable 'yobbo' element in Australian society makes it a bit inevitable. I think the racial taunts probably have more to do with a small element of the Aussie crown needing SOMETHING insultingto say, and the resulting racial taunts the result of general ignorance about the subcontinent countries. If Aussies knew more about the country's in question, they'd make fun of their fans with somethng more specific about those countries than the colour of their skin.

Of course I could be wrong...

 

[Shounak]

Whilst some racism is bad, it's not always bad.. I know this sounds bad, but what some people see as racism can simply be banter..

I remember back to 2003 Boxing Day and the VB Series.. There was a lot of yelling and screaming between the Indian and Australian supporters..

Things like "Show us yer Visa" and similar things.. White Aussies going nuts yelling.. But the Indian contingent (us) were giving it back just as much.. Things about dole and convicts.. We had ammunition..

A bystander might think that those guys yelling "Show us yer Visa" were racists, but we were drinking beer with those same guys during the break and caught up with them at the pub after.

They weren't racists and the comments were just good natured banter, coming from both sides..

Just putting another spin on things..

 

[Shounak]

I've watched a few Australia vs. NZ games in Aus', and I personally have had to endlessly endure these really weak and sad old sheep-shagger jokes (especially at the 'Gabba). It's quite absurd considering what a minor element bovine farming is in the entire context of NZ, but they keep trotting out the same tired old banter, and weren't to happy when we dished some out back.Almost every other NZlander I've talked too who has watched trans-tasmen events in Australia has told me of a similar experience. I think the large capacity of Australian ground and that lovable 'yobbo' element in Australian society makes it a bit inevitable. I think the racial taunts probably have more to do with a small element of the Aussie crown needing SOMETHING insultingto say, and the resulting racial taunts the result of general ignorance about the subcontinent countries. If Aussies knew more about the country's in question, they'd make fun of their fans with somethng more specific about those countries than the colour of their skin.

Of course I could be wrong...

I just got back from Kiwi land.. So many racists over there.. Everyone was bagging me for saying SIIIIX, instead of ***.. Or should I say SUCKS..

Another example of just banter with no malicious intent..