What's this obsession with turn?

[Autobahn]

In recent times whenever a new spinner has come along everyone is always focusing on how turn he gets like it's the only thing that matters with a spinner.

And in fact one of insults always hurled at the England team by WUMs is along the lines of "OMG giles isn't a spinner because he doesn't spin the ball LOLOLOLZ".

But turn isn't always everything, many good spinners in the past Underwood, Prasanna, Edmonds, Emburey, Tufnell, Gibbs, Richard and Ray Illingworth, Titmus, Symcox and even Saqlain Mushtaq got most of their wickets through accuracy and variation and if one turned massively that was a bonus.

Murali himself only got better when he developed variations, the fact that he got turn them massively was pointless after the batsmen adjusted to turn.

Especially in India where the batsmen are used to the turn i mean for example Shane warne and Abdul Qadir both where massively dangerous leggies who turn it a mile but got plastered by the india batsmen because of their inaccuracy, compare that with Underwood and Benaud who where both miserly accurate and often out bowled the Indians themselves.

Therefore despite the name there's a lot more to being a spinner then spinning the ball although it may be important variation and accuracy are also important.

 

[luckyeddie]

A ball only has to turn two inches to find the edge of the bat - provided the batsman hasn't played for the turn.

I agree wholeheartedly with pretty well everything you say - often, the rewards are there for the spinner who can get a batsman to commit too early to a shot - one of the reasons why so many great players of spin played primarily off the back foot.

 

[Neil Pickup]

And equally, another reason why it's criminal for spinners to consistently pitch too short. Spent quite some time yesterday afternoon exhorting 12-year-old Jake to stop bowling long hops, which the batsman was quite happily swatting over the legside off the back foot.

I then demonstrated my point perfectly, tying the batsman in knots with a leg stump half-volley - as I said - pitch it up!

 

[Pratters]

The best modern example is Anil Kumble. And the point you make regarding Murali is some thing I witnessed in the early Murali. He did turn the ball a mile even back then. But Indians specially played him so comfortably that it took some time for me to understand that this average bowler has suddenly become a force to reckon with.

I dont rate MacGill that highly for this particular reason - he bowls a loose ball an over at least which tends to put the pressure off. Aussie fans may discount it as luring the batsmen but really a loose ball leading to four over after over rather than ocassionaly does more harm than help.

Pace for faster bowlers is also over rated. Courtney Walsh for example was at his best in the ending period. Srinath also was effective most in the end when he learnt the virtues of length, accuracy and persistance. Another -modern example - Glenn McGrath at the moment.

 

[cricketboy29]

Unless your bowling in Pakistan:P

 

[Autobahn]

Unless your bowling in Pakistan:P

Even then accuracy is very important, if you can keep it tight on a flat track, the batsmen start getting frustrasted and start charging down the track all the time and make mistakes.

That's what happened with giles on the 2000-01 tour of pakistan and kaneria and malik on the recent tour.

 

[Pratters]

That's what happened with giles on the 2000-01 tour of pakistan and kaneria and malik on the recent tour.

The rash shots by English batsmen were unbelievable.

 

[Autobahn]

The rash shots by English batsmen were unbelievable.

excatly that's what happens when you pin down young agressive batsmen.

 

[Tom Halsey]

What's this obsession with turn? You don't want to be bowling gun-barrel straight at 50 mph. As Shane Watson proved in the "super" Test, you don't really want to be bowling gun-barrel straight at 87-88 mph.

That said, I agree with Eddie that you don't need to be able to turn it square, you only need to be able to turn it half the width of the bat. But you do need to turn it. And I also agree that turn isn't everything, and is useless if not mixed with accuracy, control of flight, variations, and so on.

 

[Autobahn]

What's this obsession with turn? You don't want to be bowling gun-barrel straight at 50 mph. As Shane Watson proved in the "super" Test, you don't really want to be bowling gun-barrel straight at 87-88 mph.

That said, I agree with Eddie that you don't need to be able to turn it square, you only need to be able to turn it half the width of the bat. But you do need to turn it. And I also agree that turn isn't everything, and is useless if not mixed with accuracy, control of flight, variations, and so on.

Yeah i never said turn was useless, Vic Marks often proved that you need some turn at least. ("At any time, somewhere in the world," it was said, "someone is hitting Vic Marks for six")

But what i was going on about was the obsession people have with turn at the expense of flight, variation and accuracy.

 

[Neil Pickup]

But Vic Marks > Shane Warne, I thought everyone knew that?

 

[Tom Halsey]

But Vic Marks > Shane Warne, I thought everyone knew that?

Ah, but it's not hard to be better than Shane Warne.

*tried to remember what amits once said*

Amit Mishra > Shane Warne.

 

[open365]

Sorry to go against popular opinion,but what the hell is the point in being a spinner if you can't turn it??

Bowling pace at 90mph straight up and down isn't wholy effective,so bowling 55mph straight up and down is even less effective surely.

 

[Autobahn]

ahem..

Yeah i never said turn was useless, Vic Marks often proved that you need some turn at least. ("At any time, somewhere in the world," it was said, "someone is hitting Vic Marks for six")

But what i was going on about was the obsession people have with turn at the expense of flight, variation and accuracy.

 

[honestbharani]

There is a reason why Kumble has been India's best spinner since the 90s. The Hirwanis, the Sivaramakrishnans, the Rajus, heck even the Chauhans turned the ball more, but ultimately, it is the variety and the accuracy of Kumble that went on to become the best option for India. I would have thought someone like Brad Hogg, if he became more accurate, would be an ideal candidate for a spinner who could succeed in Indian conditions, simply because he bowls it a trifle quicker and has a lot of variety even though he doesn't turn the ball much at all.

 

[open365]

Yeah i never said turn was useless, Vic Marks often proved that you need some turn at least. ("At any time, somewhere in the world," it was said, "someone is hitting Vic Marks for six")

But what i was going on about was the obsession people have with turn at the expense of flight, variation and accuracy.

Ok,there's a reason why Ashley Giles has a crap bowling average,he flights the ball well,his accuracy isn't that bad,yet he still averages 37(it might be over 40,i'm not sure).

MacGill averages a heck of a lot better,but he still bowls gimme balls a lot of the time.

It's not hard to spot the difference.

 

[Tom Halsey]

But what i was going on about was the obsession people have with turn at the expense of flight, variation and accuracy.

My view of it is that you're either born with the ability to turn the ball or you're not. Flight, variation and accuracy, to some extent at least, can be taught. Therefore if you can turn it square you show talent, but ultimately at Test level it isn't much use without accuracy, variation, control of flight and so on.

 

[Autobahn]

Ok,there's a reason why Ashley Giles has a crap bowling average,he flights the ball well,his accuracy isn't that bad,yet he still averages 37(it might be over 40,i'm not sure).

MacGill averages a heck of a lot better,but he still bowls gimme balls a lot of the time.

It's not hard to spot the difference.

Yeah i'm not trying to say giles or other small turners are better than big turners but that raw turn is nothing without variation, flight control and accuracy and people keep seeming to forget about that there have been some good spinners which haven't relied too much on turn.

 

[honestbharani]

IMO, this is just like pace. You need decent pace to make it to the top level, but after that, it depends on your accuracy, control, variety etc. There is a reason why one would choose McGrath over Lee and Kumble over MacGill.

 

[Matteh]

People are slating MacGill for bowling one loose one an over...

If you read the cricinfo biography for him...apparently it was a given for a leg spinner to have one loose ball an over before Warne appeared on the scene...and how do you attempt to equal the leading wicket taker of all time?