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Thread: South Africa Vs India

  1. #31
    State Vice-Captain Gotchya's Avatar
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    Yesterday's game really had me disoriented. Now, here i was, staring at an imminent SA win and they goof up big time. Should have kept their bad habits in mind. But there is one thing that has come out of this match and the series as a whole for India. On the many occasions before they lacked the instinct to grab an oppurtunity, and when they did they never capitalised. That was a huge disadvantage and short coming, but now things seem to have changed. The biggest reason is the infusion of young blood into the team, who are not burdened with a sense of underachievement or undue pressure. Most importantly every indian player seems to have realised the importance of his position in the team, that in its self is pivotal to any teams success. India have at the moment, young players in exactly the right positions.

    The only problem i now see is that India lack a world class strike bowler. That may steal a lot of sting from this side. Batting lineup is very solid, but when it comes to bowling, Ganguly is forced to throw the ball to atleast 7-8 of his team mates, which might work sometimes (Sehwag is an example) but not always. Srinath will have to return if India want to go places now.
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  2. #32
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Top_Cat's Avatar
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    The biggest reason is the infusion of young blood into the team, who are not burdened with a sense of underachievement or undue pressure. Most importantly every indian player seems to have realised the importance of his position in the team, that in its self is pivotal to any teams success. India have at the moment, young players in exactly the right positions.
    Bear in mind that this exact same thing was said when Ganguly, Laxman, Dravid and Agarkar came into the side and even as far back as when Tendulkar, Manjrekar and Kambli entered the international arena. There was an initial flush of some success for the individuals but it wasn't maintained by the team.

    Not meant as a dig at the current crop (because I think Yuvraj is QUALITY with a capital Q; Kaif I've not seen bat yet) but I reserve judgement until I see them perform consistently. That's what separates a potentially great player from a great one. Yuvraj is an example of a player who is potentially great but needs some solid innings at Test level. Being picked in the Test side at all would be nice! I'm stunned as to why it hasn't happened yet.

    As I've said to people on numerous occasions, Indian players will NOT succeed in bouncy or even pitches with mild carry if they keep playing defensive shots at seam bowlers with low hands. It gets them every time. I lost count of how many times Ganguly, Dravid, and co. got out caught behind fending at balls which were just back of a length on their last tour here and same for the previous tours. It was monotonous in its regularity.

    Another thing: Indian players play at the ball far too much on bouncy pitches which is probably a hangover from playing on slow, low wickets. Knowing when to leave the ball is as much a skill as actually playing it. English batsmen foudn this out first-hand when on their last tour here at the WACA, they were fending at everything and I think all bar one of the dismissals in their first innings were to slips and keeper catches. Apparently they were stunned when the Aussies would let the ball go when right on middle stump and watch it sail harmlessly over the top. They learnt a lot from that I'm sure.

    These are two glaring technical deficiencies and unless players like Ganguly, Dravid, Laxman et al address it, they'll continue to struggle in bouncy conditions which abound in Australia, the West Indies, South Africa etc.

    [Edited on 26/9/2002 by Top_Cat]
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  3. #33
    State Vice-Captain Gotchya's Avatar
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    Wasn't getting carried away (though now my post seems to dripping), but just geeing up things. It was nice to see the players perform. Yes, technically the indian batsmen may be found lacking in those conditions, same as the Sri Lankans do, and to a lesser extent the Pakistanis.

    Interesting point you make there, when Dravid, Tendulkar, Ganguly and Agarkar were on the scene, Indians looked refreshed then as well. I said that the younger players are not burdened with a sense of under-achievement and pressure to perform. Does the syndrome just pick on them as well? or is it a more fundamental problem ? India has performed badly on tracks that are not bouncy......

    What do you think is the reason for this flash in the pan thing ?

  4. #34
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Top_Cat's Avatar
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    Yes, technically the indian batsmen may be found lacking in those conditions, same as the Sri Lankans do, and to a lesser extent the Pakistanis.
    Strangely enough, the Pakistani's have been more undone by spin against Australia...........weird.

    Interesting point you make there, when Dravid, Tendulkar, Ganguly and Agarkar were on the scene, Indians looked refreshed then as well. I said that the younger players are not burdened with a sense of under-achievement and pressure to perform. Does the syndrome just pick on them as well? or is it a more fundamental problem ? India has performed badly on tracks that are not bouncy......

    What do you think is the reason for this flash in the pan thing ?
    Technically; heavy bats. It's rare for any of the Aussies to use a bat heavier than 2lbs 8oz (I think Mark Waugh may be the exception here). Plus, the Aussies tend to adjust which bats they use depending ont the conditions. Viv Richards used to do the same.

    The Indian players use these absolutely beautiful bats with magnificent curves in the ends of them but they are just far too heavy. Sachin can wield his pretty well (amazing considering he's not tall and uses a 3lbs bat) in any conditions but the heavier bats can cause someone with less strong wrists to angle the bat, hence lots of catches behind in conjunction with the low hands. This can cause a player to close the face of the bat and edge a ball to close-in fielders. So I'd suggest lighter bats. The decrease in power would be marginal and hey, Andrew Symonds uses a toothpick but no-one can say he doesn't hit the ball HARD.

    The problem (still in technical terms) is what shots some of the Indian players tend to sweat on. Anything which they can play in the arc between point or gully and mid-off or cover, they will. This is partly due to the heavier bats and partly due to the style of pitch they're used to. Slow and low means that for any balls to be hit square of the wicket, you need straong play in that arc. Mohammed Azharuddin was a master at it and so is Rahul Dravid. Laxman's most powerful shots are in that region, though he can pull pretty well too.

    But really the main technical problem is the low hands and playing too much at the line of the ball rather than at the movement off the pitch.

    Another facet to the problem may be attitudinal. It requires a different mindset and the ability to switch to a different array of shots when the conditions are different. For example, on bouncy wickets, look to leave the ball a lot, NEVER drive on the up (Indian players do this a lot - slow, low pitches once again) and look to cut rather than drive square off the backfoot.

    On slow wickets, you basically put the cut shot away, look to get on the front-foot as much as possible and look for those shots you can rock back onto the back-foot and wait to time it through point or cover because on slow wickets, you must wait for the ball a lot more.

    Maybe the Indian players are not willing to compromise their pet shots. Who knows? All I know is what I see and what I see are glaring technical faults in defense especially which are the direct result of playing on slow pitches and them not being able to adjust.

    So far, Only guys like Sachin are able to adjust their game to suit the conditions. Also, he has a pretty remarkable eye so that if he goes for a back-foot drive and the ball bounces a little more, he can adjust - the mark of a seriously good player.

    I can tell you now though, that there are very few all-wicket players anymore. Sachin is one; Steve Waugh is another; Gary Kirsten; Inzy and that's about it. So Indian's aren't alone in their ability (of lack of) to play in different conditions than they're used to.

    [Edited on 26/9/2002 by Top_Cat]


  5. #35
    Cricketer Of The Year Anil's Avatar
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    The players, whom you mentioned have proved over the years that they are no flash in the pan. The records of Tendulkar and Dravid and to a lesser extent, Ganguly and Laxman, show that. Tendulkar was the only one who really took the fight to the Aussie bowlers in the last series, but since then Dravid has really matured as a batsman and I am confident that he will do well in the next series. As for Ganguly and Laxman, they look like having achieved some consistency based on the results of the last two series and if they carry their form forward, should do better in the next Aus series(BTW when is the next Aus series?)

    Even with the arrival of these 4 players, there never was any significant increase in the team performance curve, only some great individual performances(and some success in one dayers). The reasons for this could be:

    Lack of team spirit.

    Lack of determination and grit, Tendulkar and occasionally Dravid being the honourable exceptions.

    Lack of self-belief fuelled by poor record abroad, fatalistic approach to tough match situations etc.

    Poor fielding, catching, fitness levels.....

    A largely ineffective bowling attack on pitches abroad.

    The shadow of match fixing, with prominent players like Azhar, Jadeja involved.

    In the past year or so, there has been a growing change in a positive direction and this has coincided with and is in a large measure due to the infusion of some talented youngsters into the team like Sehwag, Yuvraj, Kaif, Harb and Mongia. The changes were:

    Welcome unity in the team with Gangs, Wright and other seniors in the team openly supporting and encouraging the youngsters.

    New found determination and grit.

    Pulling through in couple of tough situations, they are developing a belief that they can indeed win these close encounters and beat any team on their day.

    Fielding and fitness levels have improved considerably.

    The bowling attack still continues to be toothless and is the biggest source of worry.

    The match-fixing dirt-bags have been exhumed and it's a cleaner game.

    So, when you look at the present scenario and compare it to 10 years back, you can see that the situations were not really similar.

    If all the positives I mentioned are maintained or improved and the weak spots are worked on, this improved team performance will endure for a long time. It's about time that happened in Indian cricket.
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  6. #36
    Hall of Fame Member luckyeddie's Avatar
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    Im not sure why, but I think everyone should give credit where credits due, I think the sudden "INDIAN WINNING" has taken every one by surprise especially English supporters
    Not me, Masterblaster. A few months ago, yes, but not recently (especially in ODI's).
    And regarding who my tenner's gone on for the world cup - 13/2 was too good an opportunity to miss.
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  7. #37
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    Originally posted by masterblaster
    Im not sure why, but I think everyone should give credit where credits due, I think the sudden "INDIAN WINNING" has taken every one by surprise especially English supporters.


    Yeah man, some of them nearly had an heart attack.

    :P:P:saint:

  8. #38
    Eyes not spreadsheets marc71178's Avatar
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    Originally posted by full_length
    I didnt misquote you.
    Yes you did - you cut the first 2 words off my sentence and completely changed the context.
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  9. #39
    Eyes not spreadsheets marc71178's Avatar
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    Originally posted by luckyeddie
    Im not sure why, but I think everyone should give credit where credits due, I think the sudden "INDIAN WINNING" has taken every one by surprise especially English supporters
    Not me, Masterblaster. A few months ago, yes, but not recently (especially in ODI's).
    And regarding who my tenner's gone on for the world cup - 13/2 was too good an opportunity to miss.
    If they were at 13-2 now I'd be interested as that is more like their true chances than what's on offer now.

  10. #40
    State Vice-Captain Gotchya's Avatar
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    The players, whom you mentioned have proved over the years that they are no flash in the pan. The records of Tendulkar and Dravid and to a lesser extent, Ganguly and Laxman, show that.
    I wasn't pointing at individual players but the overall upheaval the team experienced for a short time but then deflated again.

    Even with the arrival of these 4 players, there never was any significant increase in the team performance curve, only some great individual performances(and some success in one dayers). The reasons for this could be:
    Now ur at it.
    Lack of team spirit.

    Lack of determination and grit, Tendulkar and occasionally Dravid being the honourable exceptions.

    Lack of self-belief fuelled by poor record abroad, fatalistic approach to tough match situations etc.
    What i would like to ask is, which came first : Poor performances or the Lack of self-belief ?





  11. #41
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Top_Cat's Avatar
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    Anil: All of the things you stated as positives about the 'new' Indian team I heard and read all over the news 10 years ago. Sorry but until I see some consistent solid performances against the best to back up this new 'team spirit' etc., I have my doubts. In my opinion, seeing what is happening now and what i saw 10 years ago, the situations are VERY similar. Oh well, we just have different interpretations of events I guess.

    In short, everything I've read about this team I've seen before a few times. The players themselves may prosper (as I've mentioned) but as usual the team will probably under-achieve. I hope I'm wrong but we'll see how Yuvraj, Kaif et al do against a keyed-up Aussie attack on the WACA or the 'Gabba.

  12. #42
    Cricketer Of The Year Anil's Avatar
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    Anil: All of the things you stated as positives about the 'new' Indian team I heard and read all over the news 10 years ago. Sorry but until I see some consistent solid performances against the best to back up this new 'team spirit' etc., I have my doubts. In my opinion, seeing what is happening now and what i saw 10 years ago, the situations are VERY similar. Oh well, we just have different interpretations of events I guess.
    Oh I agree that the team has a long way to go to be judged among the world's best especially in test cricket, but I feel they are going in the right direction. Ten years back, if there was this kind of team spirit, that certainly didn't reflect on the performances in the field. Now, it is beginning to. As for Kaif, Yuvraj, Sehwag etc against McGrath and Co. at the WACA, well....we have to wait and see what happens. In my post, I just went as far as to predict that Tendulkar and Dravid will fare well, while Ganguly and Laxman will put in a much better performance than in the past. The above mentioned youngsters definitely have the right attitude, but facing the best pace attack on the fastest pitches of the world is another story altogether. At this point, I don't think either of us can predict accurately what will happen.

  13. #43
    Cricket Web XI Moderator lord_of_darkness's Avatar
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    I reckon a good One Day India Side would be

    Sehwag
    Tendulkar
    Ganguly
    Dravid
    Badani/any other person performing real well in Indian domestic that deserves a chacne
    Yuvraj
    Kaif
    Bangar
    Harbajan
    Kumble / Another Pace Guy please not Nehra or Agarkar
    Khan


    That would look a better O.D.I side for India i feel that Tendulkar batting so down and along with Dravid makes him change his real style of play , he should play with Sehwag where both of them attack and enjoy seeing each other play . Ganguly at number 3 because thats where he is good at. Badani , Kaif and Yuvraj can sort where they come , but i would like to see Yuvraj come up the order as he is a quicker scorer , Bangar because he has impressed me with the Ball in England and is really helpful with the bat , Harbajan , does better than Kumble in pitches outside India , And another Paceman needs to be chosen , someone new ... I,Siddiqui wasnt bad... i dont know why he got dropped , ?
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  14. #44
    Eyes not spreadsheets marc71178's Avatar
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    That is a bit batsman heavy for my liking, and only has 3 specialist bowlers!

  15. #45
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    Too many batsmen in there. They could really do with some good bowlers in there.

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