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Ponting is the biggest choker of them all !

Tom Halsey

International Coach
Deja moo said:
Actually it doesnt put it into perspective. You're using a twisted logic which essentially goes like,

Steve waugh was good. He didnt have a good 4th innings record. He cannot not be good !Therefore fourth innings are over rated.

I think its time to just accept that idols like Waugh, Sachin, Lara etc had their glaring flaws, and move on.
His point was that 4th Innings doesn't necessarily equal pressure. Because Steve Waugh was undoubtedly a brilliant pressure player, but failed in the 4th Innings.
 

C_C

International Captain
Tom Halsey said:
His point was that 4th Innings doesn't necessarily equal pressure. Because Steve Waugh was undoubtedly a brilliant pressure player, but failed in the 4th Innings.
He played a few brilliant innings under pressure, but i find him no more accomplished in terms of pressure than Tendulkar/Inzamam/Gavaskar/Border, etc.
 

Pratters

Cricket, Lovely Cricket
Right now Inzamam would be the player if you had to choose some one to bat for your life.

(But you have to have nerves of steel hen he is running)
 

Son Of Coco

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Deja moo said:
These were his 4th innings stats as on 27/08/04:

Ponting 4th innings average : 35.91 (career ave:54.33) , 1x100 and 1x50 .HS: 100*

It'd be interesting to note that despite his proficiency in chasing in ODIs, Sachin too didnt have great 4th innings stats:

Sachin 4th innings average : 35.73 (career ave: 57 ?), 2x100s and 2x50s .HS:136 vs Pakistan.

Lara was marginally better:

Lara 4th innings average : 39.11 (career ave: 52.84) ,2x100s and 7x50s . HS: 153*

Kallis, Dravid had 4th innings averages of 50+ and Inzy 46, at that point in time.
Referring to these stats, don't posters calling Ponting a choker think that maybe 4th innings averages are also affected by the condition of the wickets? Traditionally you'd expect it to be harder to bat in the 4th innings than the first, so that would have to be taken into account wouldn't it? As far as one-day cricket goes, if you're chasing targets of 250+, you generally have to take more risks at an earlier stage...it seems to me that this thread may have been generated by someone who isn't a Ponting fan (I came to this conclusion through brilliant detective work! :D, and that the thread itself belongs somewhere near the Kyhber Pass.
 

Deja moo

International Captain
Son Of Coco said:
Referring to these stats, don't posters calling Ponting a choker think that maybe 4th innings averages are also affected by the condition of the wickets? Traditionally you'd expect it to be harder to bat in the 4th innings than the first, so that would have to be taken into account wouldn't it? As far as one-day cricket goes, if you're chasing targets of 250+, you generally have to take more risks at an earlier stage...it seems to me that this thread may have been generated by someone who isn't a Ponting fan (I came to this conclusion through brilliant detective work! :D, and that the thread itself belongs somewhere near the Kyhber Pass.
C'mon, that seems undoubtedly to have been the intention, but its a valid stat, isnt it ? Like Jono pointed out, Dravid has a much higher average with a SR slightly less.
 

Robertinho

Cricketer Of The Year
Rather than looking purely at stats, look at his brilliant 156 at Old Trafford. That was a "knock under pressure" e un mezza ;)
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Robertinho said:
Rather than looking purely at stats, look at his brilliant 156 at Old Trafford. That was a "knock under pressure" e un mezza ;)
But how many people actually do that? For most people, it seems the stats are the be all and end all. They say Lara and Sachin don' bat well under pressure... What about the 169, the 136, the 165 odd at Chennai by Sachin? They were all under pressure. And we don't even have to get started on Lara. Ever since 1999, every innings of his has been under a great deal of pressure, simply because 80% of the time, his wicket seals it for the Windies.
 

Deja moo

International Captain
Robertinho said:
Rather than looking purely at stats, look at his brilliant 156 at Old Trafford. That was a "knock under pressure" e un mezza ;)
I havent said otherwise. Sadly his One day stats reveal another facet :)
 

Deja moo

International Captain
honestbharani said:
But how many people actually do that? For most people, it seems the stats are the be all and end all. They say Lara and Sachin don' bat well under pressure... What about the 169, the 136, the 165 odd at Chennai by Sachin? They were all under pressure. And we don't even have to get started on Lara. Ever since 1999, every innings of his has been under a great deal of pressure, simply because 80% of the time, his wicket seals it for the Windies.
No, I say they dont bat well under pressure on as many occasions as some other batsmen do. They do have fine innings under pressure in their careers, but surely the average suggests that there have been many more occasions when they havent pulled it off as consistently as some others.
 

Robertinho

Cricketer Of The Year
Deja moo said:
Who did say the 86* was under pressure ?
...

My point was that 4th innings aren't necessarily "under pressure". How much pressure do you think Australia were under in their fourth innings (if it made it that far) during their 16 match winning streak?

Statistics are a terrible way to "analyse" a player's performance under pressure. You can't measure pressure a player is under, the only way to assess their batting "under pressure" is by watching.
 

Deja moo

International Captain
Robertinho said:
...

My point was that 4th innings aren't necessarily "under pressure". How much pressure do you think Australia were under in their fourth innings (if it made it that far) during their 16 match winning streak?

Statistics are a terrible way to "analyse" a player's performance under pressure. You can't measure pressure a player is under, the only way to assess their batting "under pressure" is by watching.
Well, my point is they're pressure situations on more occasions than not, more so than other innings ( except the first on many occasions, for openers and one-downs as pointed out by Suds). There are bound to be flaky individual innings in the fourth too, but given the pitch conditions and the very nature of the final innings, in which you're most likely to be chasing, IMO they're very important as markers.
 

Robertinho

Cricketer Of The Year
Deja moo said:
Well, my point is they're pressure situations on more occasions than not, more so than other innings ( except the first on many occasions, for openers and one-downs as pointed out by Suds).
perhaps, but you say that the first innings is a pressure innings aswell for first drops. Ricky Ponting averages 69.39 in 1st innings'. And..his 4th innings average is 50? :blink:

What's your argument, again?! He's not a good 'pressure' batsman because he only averages 50 in the 4th innings?
 

Deja moo

International Captain
Robertinho said:
perhaps, but you say that the first innings is a pressure innings aswell for first drops. Ricky Ponting averages 69.39 in 1st innings'. And..his 4th innings average is 50? :blink:

What's your argument, again?! He's not a good 'pressure' batsman because he only averages 50 in the 4th innings?
No, my point is that he isnt a good pressure batsman in ODIs (with the added dimension of having to maintain a good enough SR too) when chasing big totals. And first innings arent as pressurising IMO to the extent 4th innings are, and even less for Punter who has Langer and Hayden to cushion him.
 

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