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Thread: Top of the world? - You're havin' a laugh

  1. #1
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    Top of the world? - You're havin' a laugh

    Any thoughts that England are about to challenge Australia's supremacy at Test level have surely been dispelled. In fact if you look past the first eleven the cupboard is worringly bare. When Simon Jones was injured he was replaced with a bits and pieces, sub Test standard allrounder. Trying to find a second spinner lead to the selection of a 36 year old making his debut. The average cricket fan has probably never heard of some of the replacements sent for on the current tour. The wicketkeeper is not Test standard and is chosen for his batting. Now with Strauss missing the final Test we will once again probably see Collingwood filling in unless they choose Cook(who?)
    In a nutshell there is no quality back-up batsman, no world class spinners, a below standard wicketkeeper and no back up seam bowlers of any quality.

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    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend andyc's Avatar
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    True, the lack of depth is a bit worrying (for them), but the first XI is pretty damn good.
    Quote Originally Posted by flibbertyjibber View Post
    Only a bunch of convicts having been beaten 3-0 and gone 9 tests without a win and won just 1 in 11 against England could go into the home series saying they will win. England will win in Australia again this winter as they are a better side which they have shown this summer. 3-0 doesn't lie girls.

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    International Debutant Pedro Delgado's Avatar
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    I'm happy enough being second or even third best in the world to be honest, I've enjoyed the last few years and some of the cricket has been sensational, it wasn't going to go on forever this run of series wins, and I'm glad Pak have given us a fight. Let's be thankful for where we are now I say.
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    I love English cricket fans. Two slightly off-games and suddenly it's find the nearest skyscraper and get ready to hurl yourself off it. It's been a great series so far - and it's not like Australia have any back up seam bowlers either. How many casual fans had heard of Tait? Australia picked Nathan Hauritz nine months ago. We just need a little more middle order stickability - Inzamam's been the difference this series.

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    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend andyc's Avatar
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    You know I never actually really thought of it, but it is a valid point you bring up, just to expand from my first post. You look at Australia and you have people who haven't played tests (or a lot of them) like Michael Hussey (52.93), David Hussey (54.15), Phil Jaques (55.03), and Brad Hodge (46.83), and they're just the ones I know from the top of my head. Now, I could be completely wrong here, and I have no real idea about the English county system, but I wouldn't be so sure that England has that sort of depth.

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    Since Thorpe left England have lost the ability to bat under pressure. If England hadn't batted first in the ashes most of the time, theres a good argument we wouldnt have won it. They just dont seem to bat as a team, they bat as individuals. They seem to pride themselves on the fact that someone in the team will make a good score, well that just isnt good enough. They need to be batting for partnerships in my book and stop playing silly shots. Assuming Fletcher's blatant love of Paul Collingwood doesn't get the better of him, Mr Cook looks set to make his Test debut, so perhaps he could be the sort of batsmen we need.
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    Quote Originally Posted by andyc
    You know I never actually really thought of it, but it is a valid point you bring up, just to expand from my first post. You look at Australia and you have people who haven't played tests (or a lot of them) like Michael Hussey (52.93), David Hussey (54.15), Phil Jaques (55.03), and Brad Hodge (46.83), and they're just the ones I know from the top of my head. Now, I could be completely wrong here, and I have no real idea about the English county system, but I wouldn't be so sure that England has that sort of depth.
    Ali Cook, the first resereve on this tour, is not yet 21 and averages 43 (52 last season scoring nearly 1500 runs, not including his double century against the aussies). Owais Shah has eally come on in recent years, scoring over 3000 runs in the last two seasons at over 60 to go with 1000 runs for 5 straight years now. Ed Joyce averages nearly 50 in his career and has scored 1000 runs for fours straight years. And then there is Robert Key (who remeber does actually have a test double hundred to his name), Mark Butcher and a few others who would be emergency call ups.

    So whilst I'm not saying that we have the depth of Australia (I don't think any team does), the cupboard is certainly not bare.

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    Every team that gets the better of Australia (even stays on level terms with them) is suddenly expected to take over the top spot and all other cricketing nations are expected to fall before them as they are expected to do before the Aussies. India and Indians have suffered from such illusions of grandeus anly to be brought to earth with a crash and England are no different.

    Winning the Ashes was as much a guarantee of scraping the floor with all comers in for the next couiple of years as was India's tremendous show in 2001 at home.

    Englnad have lost a match to Pakistan not to minnows like Zimbabwe.

    Pakistan who are known to be a talented side. Inzemam, Shoaib, Kaneria, Mohammad Yousuf etc would find places in most sides in the world. So why should it be such a massive surprise. Pakistan at home, IF THEY PLAY TO POTENTIAL, which doesnt always happen, have always been a very tough team.

    England fan's disappointment is the result of reading far too much into one series win even if the opponents were Australia.

    AND Australia are NOT the side they were. So beating them now and then is not that great a feat anymore.

  9. #9
    We can not judge the strength in depth of a team by purely looking at FC stats. For all anyone knows all of the batsmen listed so far with strong FC averages might be Ramprakashes at Test level - we simply do not know the strength in depth til a string of injuries come along and we see the underlings play Tests for a while.
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    International Coach Barney Rubble's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lillian Thomson
    Any thoughts that England are about to challenge Australia's supremacy at Test level have surely been dispelled. In fact if you look past the first eleven the cupboard is worringly bare. When Simon Jones was injured he was replaced with a bits and pieces, sub Test standard allrounder. Trying to find a second spinner lead to the selection of a 36 year old making his debut. The average cricket fan has probably never heard of some of the replacements sent for on the current tour. The wicketkeeper is not Test standard and is chosen for his batting. Now with Strauss missing the final Test we will once again probably see Collingwood filling in unless they choose Cook(who?)
    In a nutshell there is no quality back-up batsman, no world class spinners, a below standard wicketkeeper and no back up seam bowlers of any quality.
    Bear in mind this performance in Pakistan was achieved a) without the captain in the first game, who is also one of our best batsmen, and with a waste of space in his position, and b) without world cricket's best fast-bowling prospect of the last 12 months, who's been replaced by a 36-year-old who's actually playing on pitches that don't suit him anyway. If Vaughan and Jones had been playing, things may well have gone differently, and people might be saying "Wow, England are 1-0 up with 1 to play, they could win 2-0 in Pakistan, that's a great performance - maybe they are the team to overtake Australia". You can't judge from 2 games. Judge from the last 2 years - we've beaten pretty much everyone, including Australia, so if they're gonna lose their crown, chances are it'll be to us.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Barney Rubble
    Bear in mind this performance in Pakistan was achieved a) without the captain in the first game, who is also one of our best batsmen, and with a waste of space in his position, and b) without world cricket's best fast-bowling prospect of the last 12 months, who's been replaced by a 36-year-old who's actually playing on pitches that don't suit him anyway. If Vaughan and Jones had been playing, things may well have gone differently, and people might be saying "Wow, England are 1-0 up with 1 to play, they could win 2-0 in Pakistan, that's a great performance - maybe they are the team to overtake Australia". You can't judge from 2 games. Judge from the last 2 years - we've beaten pretty much everyone, including Australia, so if they're gonna lose their crown, chances are it'll be to us.
    A bit harsh on Bell there...

  12. #12
    International Coach Barney Rubble's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scaly piscine
    A bit harsh on Bell there...
    You know I meant Collingwood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barney Rubble
    Bear in mind this performance in Pakistan was achieved a) without the captain in the first game, who is also one of our best batsmen, and with a waste of space in his position, and b) without world cricket's best fast-bowling prospect of the last 12 months, who's been replaced by a 36-year-old who's actually playing on pitches that don't suit him anyway. If Vaughan and Jones had been playing, things may well have gone differently, and people might be saying "Wow, England are 1-0 up with 1 to play, they could win 2-0 in Pakistan, that's a great performance - maybe they are the team to overtake Australia". You can't judge from 2 games. Judge from the last 2 years - we've beaten pretty much everyone, including Australia, so if they're gonna lose their crown, chances are it'll be to us.
    That just proves my original point about the cupboard being bare. One injury is a crisis.

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    International Coach wpdavid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lillian Thomson
    That just proves my original point about the cupboard being bare. One injury is a crisis.
    I suppose that is one less than Aus, to be fair.

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    Hall of Fame Member chaminda_00's Avatar
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    I don't think people are giving enough credit to how good this Pakistan really is. This Pakistan side at full strength or slightly below are capable of pushing Australia and England for the top spot. They probably have the best depth going around in Test Cricket. Asim Kamal and Hasan Raza are very good reserve batsmen. Abdul Razzaq is already better then the best all rounder in Australia, Shane Watson. Then you look at their bowling depth Gul, Rana, Mushtaq and Saqlain, a lot better then Engand or Australia. If they can improve the consistency of their 1st XI and find the right combinations they could be a brilliant side.
    Last edited by chaminda_00; 24-11-2005 at 08:28 AM.
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