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Thread: What did Sydney Barnes bowl?

  1. #31
    SJS
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaminda_00
    All this talk about pace bowlers bowling off breaks and leg breaks still happens now. Kaspa bowls a off break (off cutter) these days and guys like Stryis and Kluesener bowl a lot of fast off breaks, but all these guys would still be classifed as pace bowlers.
    And off-cutter was a later terminology. As was a tendency to equate off-break with off-spin with slow bowling.

    Originally, with over arm bowling almost all bowlers tried to move the ball in from the off. This was called an off-break. Whether it was slow off-break or fast offf-break was an appendage to the description.

    Almost all the early fast bowlers bowled off-breaks.

    Later when bowlers like Branes started bowling leg-breaks(purely called so due to the movement from leg to off from the pitch) and did it at high pace and did it with consistent line and length (not associated then with leg break), it became clear that a new weapon had been discovered and more and more bowlers started learning to master the control of this type of bowling.

    Another fact to remember is that in the earlies times mid 19th century, the grounds were horrendous (not that the wickets were great) so that the ball got roughened up quick time. Thus swerve wasnt available to the bowlers and breaking off the wicket was the best bet. The wicket conditions encouraged that too.

  2. #32
    International Debutant a massive zebra's Avatar
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    Plum Warner on Barnes

    Barnes, whose pace was fast-medium, brought the ball down from a great height, broke both ways, and had a deceptive flight. He possessed very strong and long fingers, and his leg-break especially came very fast off the pitch. He made full use of the width of the crease, and in this way often deceived the batsman as to the exact course his leg-break, which he cut rather than spun, was taking through the air. The Australians aver that he is the greatest bowler England has ever sent to Australia, and I fancy the South Africans would be of the same opinion, as they saw him on their matting wickets. He was a strong man, and never gave in or relaxed his efforts for a moment. With F.R. Foster at the other end we had the perfect combination: a finer pair of opening bowlers never represented England, at all events on Australian wickets. One might point out that George Lohmann's average in test matches against the old enemy is actually far superior, but it must be remembered that Barnes had to bowl against Australian batting at its strongest and best, whereas Lohmann met the Australians at period when batting was not their strongest suit. They had great bowlers - Spofforth, Palmer, Garrett, Boyle, Giffen, Turner, Ferris, Jones, Trumble, etc. - but their batsmen, as a whole, were considerably below the standard they have obtained since 1896. That Lohmann was a complete master of his art there cannot be two opinions. He took a fairly long run to the crease, his arm was high, he could turn the ball both ways, and over and over again he deceived the batsmen with his clever variation of pace, a catch and bowl, or a catch at mid-off or in the deep field, often resulting. But that he was a greater bowler than Barnes I find it hard to believe. He would be a rash man who gave his verdict for Lohmann over Barnes. They were both very great, and the wisest thing to do is to give each a First Class in any Honours School, but I doubt Lohmann would have had the same success had he played on the hard Australian wickets of 20 years later against the much more accomplished batsmen Barnes had to contend with.

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  3. #33
    State Vice-Captain Debris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by archie mac View Post
    I become quite confused with these old players, I always thought Hugh Trumble to be an off-spinner but Peter Sharpman (writer) claims that he was in fact a lot faster.

    Also 'Terror Turner' was once clocked at 55 miles an hour?

    And we have the 'Demon' Spofforth credited with a stumping by Jack Blackham off his bowling, and this when he was quite young?
    Jack Blackham was reputed to stand up to the stumps to everybody, even the fastest bowlers of the day. He was the first great keeper for Australia, although I can't speak for the state of his teeth.

  4. #34
    International Captain Migara's Avatar
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    He bowled leg breaks at medium pace. He also swung them in at the same pace and worse of all he swung them in, very sharply from oustside the off stump, they pitched on the leg stump, broke away like leg breaks and knocked off stumps out of the ground !!
    Sorry, that's not possible. Swing and spin cannot occur together. For spin to occur ball has to spin forwards with an angled seam. For swing to occur, ball has to spin backwards to keep the seam straight. Backward spun balls do not turn, or turn very little (unless it is a tennis ball), and forward sun balls do not swing. The swing which early literature describes IMO is the drift that spinners get.
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    International Regular NasserFan207's Avatar
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    Honestly it sounds like reverse swing to me.
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  6. #36
    International Captain Migara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NasserFan207 View Post
    Honestly it sounds like reverse swing to me.
    still ball cannot turn if it spins backward, and cannot swing if it spins forward, at least within parameters of cricket.

  7. #37
    International Captain ankitj's Avatar
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    I am confused about the forward spin thing, Migara. To spin the ball it must be imparted lateral spin I thought. A forward spun ball is same as topspinner, isn't it? It will only dip downwards and mover quicker after pitching rather than spinning in either direction.

  8. #38
    International Coach G.I.Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Migara View Post
    Sorry, that's not possible. Swing and spin cannot occur together. For spin to occur ball has to spin forwards with an angled seam. For swing to occur, ball has to spin backwards to keep the seam straight. Backward spun balls do not turn, or turn very little (unless it is a tennis ball), and forward sun balls do not swing. The swing which early literature describes IMO is the drift that spinners get.
    Why does a ball spinning forwards not swing?
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  9. #39
    International Captain Migara's Avatar
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    For a off spinner the seam (rather the direction of rotation) should be in // position (top spinner || and leggie \\). Because hitting the seam provides bounce most spinners spin it along the seam. The rotation is towards the batsman. OK, it jas lateral and foward spin both. The degree of spin will depend on how much each component is.

    For a in swinger the seam is in the exact position to that of an off break (//). But this one spins towards bowler due to the release.

  10. #40
    International Captain Migara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G.I.Joe View Post
    Why does a ball spinning forwards not swing?
    I haven't seen it any where yet.
    And I've seen Anil Kumble sending some 115k top spinners with perfect upright seam and enormous amounts of spin, but never seen anything swing even marginally, while Prasad and co. bowling 120k stuff swinging it prodigiously,

    And other instance it might happen is after pitching. I've seen balls swing after pitching if seam stays up right and maintains backward spin or stays still. Never seen it happening with forward spin.

    And I've seen an article too stating the same, but since I cannot find a link to it, will not bring it to the discussion.

  11. #41
    International Captain ankitj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Migara View Post
    For a off spinner the seam (rather the direction of rotation) should be in // position (top spinner || and leggie \\). Because hitting the seam provides bounce most spinners spin it along the seam. The rotation is towards the batsman. OK, it jas lateral and foward spin both. The degree of spin will depend on how much each component is.

    For a in swinger the seam is in the exact position to that of an off break (//). But this one spins towards bowler due to the release.
    Does the spinner care about seam at all? I thought it just the rotations that result in the spin. What you are saying is that along with rotations, if the ball lands on the seam that is additionally good for extra bounce. But is it even possible for a spinner to control a rotating ball enough to make land on the seam?

  12. #42
    Cricket Web Staff Member archie mac's Avatar
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    Some old names on here, a massive zebra knew his stuff and Tapi may have been the most knowledgeable poster ever to grace these boards (SJS excepted)

    Yes, they have been replaced by other fine contributors
    You know it makes sense.

  13. #43
    International Captain Migara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 8ankitj View Post
    Does the spinner care about seam at all? I thought it just the rotations that result in the spin. What you are saying is that along with rotations, if the ball lands on the seam that is additionally good for extra bounce. But is it even possible for a spinner to control a rotating ball enough to make land on the seam?
    Exactly. What I am denoted by // for a off spinner is that the perpendicular to the rotational axis. When this perpendicular defines the seam, the ball spins and bounces more, because the seam grips more. When the seam is all over the place you normally don't expect spin. The only time you expect it is when the rotation is along the seam (or seam stays up right). Well see some close up clips of Swann and Harbhajan, they ball with an up right seam.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Migara View Post
    Sorry, that's not possible. Swing and spin cannot occur together. For spin to occur ball has to spin forwards with an angled seam. For swing to occur, ball has to spin backwards to keep the seam straight. Backward spun balls do not turn, or turn very little (unless it is a tennis ball), and forward sun balls do not swing. The swing which early literature describes IMO is the drift that spinners get.
    A medium-pace inswing bowler can swing a ball in and get it to break away in the same delivery. Haven't you come across it before? You angle the seam to a wide-ish fine leg, and as long as the seam presentation is very good it should not only swing, but also spin due to the ball rotating down the seam at an angle.
    Last edited by wellAlbidarned; 27-11-2011 at 01:50 AM.
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  15. #45
    International Captain Migara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wellAlbidarned View Post
    A medium-pace inswing bowler can swing a ball in and get it to break away in the same delivery. Haven't you come across it before? You angle the seam to a wide-ish fine leg, and as long as the seam presentation is very good it should not only swing, but also spin due to the ball rotating down the seam at an angle.
    No it cannot happen. The tell tale example is Grant Bradburn, who spins the ball back wards (although regarded as an off break bowler). There is no spin at all off the pitch, but ball moves in air before pitching. Just You tube Grant Bradburn and see what happens.

    Ball swinging and breaking off the pich is called the seam movement and it has no bearing on the amount of spin on the ball.

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