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Thread: Who is the world's best Test bowler ever?

  1. #1
    International Regular a massive zebra's Avatar
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    Who is the world's best Test bowler ever?

    I thought this fine article would be of interest to many of our members. In my opinion Barnes and Marshall should be placed a little higher with Grimmett and Warne a little lower, but irrespective of personal opinions this is indeed a fine effort at addressing once and for all a much debated issue.
    Last edited by a massive zebra; 30-10-2005 at 04:31 AM.
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    Cricketer Of The Year SirBloody Idiot's Avatar
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    This is definately going to spark another Warne/Muralitharan debate, I can just tell.

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    Hi everyone

    Murali, eh? Greatest thrower against Zimbabwe? Yes. Certainly not greatest bowler of all time. What a load of tripe that stupid statistical analyses was, a kindergarten kid could have done a better job. This guy ranks Grimmett as no 2, I've read that he was only an average player, who took most of his wickets by bowling an exceptional number of deliveries, often to very ordinary batsmen (sounds like someone else?)

    Older people than me who know these things tend to say DK Lillee was the greatest, I'll go with that

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    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend andyc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gs_86
    Murali, eh? Greatest thrower against Zimbabwe? Yes. Certainly not greatest bowler of all time. What a load of tripe that stupid statistical analyses was, a kindergarten kid could have done a better job. This guy ranks Grimmett as no 2, I've read that he was only an average player, who took most of his wickets by bowling an exceptional number of deliveries, often to very ordinary batsmen (sounds like someone else?)
    You're gonna have fun here. And I suggest you keep whatever deluded opinions you have about Murali to yourself, it tends to spark big arguments which end in thread closure.
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    International Regular a massive zebra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gs_86
    This guy ranks Grimmett as no 2, I've read that he was only an average player, who took most of his wickets by bowling an exceptional number of deliveries, often to very ordinary batsmen
    I would agree with that. Averaged mid 30s against England, the only world class team of his time. You have to give him credit for bowling so many deliveries, it does take considerable stamina, but his fine record benefited considerably from having the opportunity to run through mediocre teams like South Africa.

    Quote Originally Posted by gs_86
    Older people than me who know these things tend to say DK Lillee was the greatest, I'll go with that
    No, too many holes in his armoury, as C_C has shown numerous times. Failed in the subcontinent, weak against tailenders and lefthanders. His reputation far outweighs his actual performance.

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    Cricket Web Staff Member luckyeddie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirBloody Idiot
    This is definately going to spark another Warne/Muralitharan debate, I can just tell.
    There's one or two who are only happy when they are getting stuck in.

    It could be because they are stupidly argumentative. On the other hand, they could be argumentatively stupid.
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    Once and for all? Hardly. Highly dubious statistical usage there and the overall article has the sophistication of a first-year stats student, the weightings for different criteria being particularly suspect (home wickets weighted the same as away wickets?? That helps Murali quite a bit, for example). Be very interested to see how he came up with his 'indexes' and the like. This paragraph leaves little to imagination;

    "Warne might be the more charismatic, larger than life bowler likely to produce unplayable deliveries. However there is no disputing Muralitharan's position as the best bowler of all time. His performance, both home and away, have been awe-inspiring and with limited support from the other end he has produced magical performances consistently."

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    Cricket Web Staff Member luckyeddie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Cat
    Once and for all? Hardly. Highly dubious statistical usage there and the overall article has the sophistication of a first-year stats student, the weightings for different criteria being particularly suspect (home wickets weighted the same as away wickets?? That helps Murali quite a bit, for example). Be very interested to see how he came up with his 'indexes' and the like. This paragraph leaves little to imagination;

    "Warne might be the more charismatic, larger than life bowler likely to produce unplayable deliveries. However there is no disputing Muralitharan's position as the best bowler of all time. His performance, both home and away, have been awe-inspiring and with limited support from the other end he has produced magical performances consistently."
    My guess is that he started with the result he wanted and worked backwards.

    Just like many people in this thread will do.

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    International Regular a massive zebra's Avatar
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    The first Freddie (Spofforth) IMO comes pretty high.

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    Whilst one can disagree with his methodology, he's certainly v rigorous. It has produced a few results that strike me as counter-intuitive (Gough above Botham & Laker and Hoggard above Verity, Willis, Statham & Underwood in the English list), but statistical analysis does remove personal bias.

    Just not sure he's applied the correct statistical analysis! Interesting stuff tho.
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    Quote Originally Posted by andyc
    You're gonna have fun here. And I suggest you keep whatever deluded opinions you have about Murali to yourself, it tends to spark big arguments which end in thread closure.
    Whatever my deluded opinions about Murali, the fact is he has taken 107 wickets against the park cricket standard test nations (a bit harsh on park cricketers, but hey) and a massive 8 against Australia in Australia (3 if you don't count the supertest). Even in Sri Lanka he couldn't get the Australian batsmen out, only the bowlers, and since he's too much of a cat to come out to Australia where he knows he will only get tail end wickets he's not gonna have a chance to improve that record. These are all facts and nothing to do with the workings of my deluded mind

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    Cricket Web Moderator Neil Pickup's Avatar
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    I disagree - statistical analysis can quite easily be used to "legitimise" bias, with careful selection of what tests and what weightings you used. Give me an hour or two and I could create you something "rigorous" that proved virtually anything - heck, giving "quality of wickets taken" a greater rating could quite easily whip Gilo up to the realm of all time greats.

    My favourite statement here is this one - "Muralitharan again amazes us. In the 157 spells he has bowled, he has gone wicket-less only 6 times. That is consistency."

    Possibly some of the all-time great specious logic - for me, second in the all-time list to this gem:

    "There's not a single bear in sight-the 'Bear Patrol' is working like a charm"
    "That's specious reasoning," Lisa retorts
    "Thanks, honey," Homer says to her, adoringly
    "According to your logic," she says, picking up a stone from their lawn, "this rock keeps tigers away"
    "Hmmm. How does it work?"
    "It doesn't."
    "How so?" Homer asks further
    "It's just a rock," she says. "But I don't see a tiger, anywhere."
    "Lisa," concludes Homer, while pulling out his wallet, "I want to buy your rock."
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    Cricket Web Staff Member luckyeddie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gs_86
    Whatever my deluded opinions about Murali, the fact is he has taken 107 wickets against the park cricket standard test nations (a bit harsh on park cricketers, but hey) and a massive 8 against Australia in Australia (3 if you don't count the supertest). Even in Sri Lanka he couldn't get the Australian batsmen out, only the bowlers, and since he's too much of a cat to come out to Australia where he knows he will only get tail end wickets he's not gonna have a chance to improve that record. These are all facts and nothing to do with the workings of my deluded mind
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    James was right - it doesn't take long for a thread like this to attract them. I guess our fears have been confirmed in less than an hour.

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    Cricket, Lovely Cricket Pratters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luckyeddie
    James was right - it doesn't take long for a thread like this to attract them. I guess our fears have been confirmed in less than an hour.
    Agreed.

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