• Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

Who is the world's best Test bowler ever?

gs_86

Cricket Spectator
Hi everyone

Murali, eh? Greatest thrower against Zimbabwe? Yes. Certainly not greatest bowler of all time. What a load of tripe that stupid statistical analyses was, a kindergarten kid could have done a better job. This guy ranks Grimmett as no 2, I've read that he was only an average player, who took most of his wickets by bowling an exceptional number of deliveries, often to very ordinary batsmen (sounds like someone else?)

Older people than me who know these things tend to say DK Lillee was the greatest, I'll go with that
 

andyc

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
gs_86 said:
Murali, eh? Greatest thrower against Zimbabwe? Yes. Certainly not greatest bowler of all time. What a load of tripe that stupid statistical analyses was, a kindergarten kid could have done a better job. This guy ranks Grimmett as no 2, I've read that he was only an average player, who took most of his wickets by bowling an exceptional number of deliveries, often to very ordinary batsmen (sounds like someone else?)
You're gonna have fun here. And I suggest you keep whatever deluded opinions you have about Murali to yourself, it tends to spark big arguments which end in thread closure.
 

a massive zebra

International Captain
gs_86 said:
This guy ranks Grimmett as no 2, I've read that he was only an average player, who took most of his wickets by bowling an exceptional number of deliveries, often to very ordinary batsmen
I would agree with that. Averaged mid 30s against England, the only world class team of his time. You have to give him credit for bowling so many deliveries, it does take considerable stamina, but his fine record benefited considerably from having the opportunity to run through mediocre teams like South Africa.

gs_86 said:
Older people than me who know these things tend to say DK Lillee was the greatest, I'll go with that
No, too many holes in his armoury, as C_C has shown numerous times. Failed in the subcontinent, weak against tailenders and lefthanders. His reputation far outweighs his actual performance.
 

luckyeddie

Cricket Web Staff Member
SirBloody Idiot said:
This is definately going to spark another Warne/Muralitharan debate, I can just tell.
There's one or two who are only happy when they are getting stuck in.

It could be because they are stupidly argumentative. On the other hand, they could be argumentatively stupid.
 

Top_Cat

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Once and for all? Hardly. Highly dubious statistical usage there and the overall article has the sophistication of a first-year stats student, the weightings for different criteria being particularly suspect (home wickets weighted the same as away wickets?? That helps Murali quite a bit, for example). Be very interested to see how he came up with his 'indexes' and the like. This paragraph leaves little to imagination;

"Warne might be the more charismatic, larger than life bowler likely to produce unplayable deliveries. However there is no disputing Muralitharan's position as the best bowler of all time. His performance, both home and away, have been awe-inspiring and with limited support from the other end he has produced magical performances consistently."
 

luckyeddie

Cricket Web Staff Member
Top_Cat said:
Once and for all? Hardly. Highly dubious statistical usage there and the overall article has the sophistication of a first-year stats student, the weightings for different criteria being particularly suspect (home wickets weighted the same as away wickets?? That helps Murali quite a bit, for example). Be very interested to see how he came up with his 'indexes' and the like. This paragraph leaves little to imagination;

"Warne might be the more charismatic, larger than life bowler likely to produce unplayable deliveries. However there is no disputing Muralitharan's position as the best bowler of all time. His performance, both home and away, have been awe-inspiring and with limited support from the other end he has produced magical performances consistently."
My guess is that he started with the result he wanted and worked backwards.

Just like many people in this thread will do.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
Whilst one can disagree with his methodology, he's certainly v rigorous. It has produced a few results that strike me as counter-intuitive (Gough above Botham & Laker and Hoggard above Verity, Willis, Statham & Underwood in the English list), but statistical analysis does remove personal bias.

Just not sure he's applied the correct statistical analysis! Interesting stuff tho. :)
 

gs_86

Cricket Spectator
andyc said:
You're gonna have fun here. And I suggest you keep whatever deluded opinions you have about Murali to yourself, it tends to spark big arguments which end in thread closure.
Whatever my deluded opinions about Murali, the fact is he has taken 107 wickets against the park cricket standard test nations (a bit harsh on park cricketers, but hey) and a massive 8 against Australia in Australia (3 if you don't count the supertest). Even in Sri Lanka he couldn't get the Australian batsmen out, only the bowlers, and since he's too much of a cat to come out to Australia where he knows he will only get tail end wickets he's not gonna have a chance to improve that record. These are all facts and nothing to do with the workings of my deluded mind
 

Neil Pickup

Cricket Web Moderator
I disagree - statistical analysis can quite easily be used to "legitimise" bias, with careful selection of what tests and what weightings you used. Give me an hour or two and I could create you something "rigorous" that proved virtually anything - heck, giving "quality of wickets taken" a greater rating could quite easily whip Gilo up to the realm of all time greats.

My favourite statement here is this one - "Muralitharan again amazes us. In the 157 spells he has bowled, he has gone wicket-less only 6 times. That is consistency."

Possibly some of the all-time great specious logic - for me, second in the all-time list to this gem:

"There's not a single bear in sight-the 'Bear Patrol' is working like a charm"
"That's specious reasoning," Lisa retorts
"Thanks, honey," Homer says to her, adoringly
"According to your logic," she says, picking up a stone from their lawn, "this rock keeps tigers away"
"Hmmm. How does it work?"
"It doesn't."
"How so?" Homer asks further
"It's just a rock," she says. "But I don't see a tiger, anywhere."
"Lisa," concludes Homer, while pulling out his wallet, "I want to buy your rock."
 

luckyeddie

Cricket Web Staff Member
gs_86 said:
Whatever my deluded opinions about Murali, the fact is he has taken 107 wickets against the park cricket standard test nations (a bit harsh on park cricketers, but hey) and a massive 8 against Australia in Australia (3 if you don't count the supertest). Even in Sri Lanka he couldn't get the Australian batsmen out, only the bowlers, and since he's too much of a cat to come out to Australia where he knows he will only get tail end wickets he's not gonna have a chance to improve that record. These are all facts and nothing to do with the workings of my deluded mind
Trip trap, trip trap, trip trap.
"Who's that crossing my bridge?" asked the Troll.
"It is I, Big Billy Goat Gruff" replied Luckyeddie

James was right - it doesn't take long for a thread like this to attract them. I guess our fears have been confirmed in less than an hour.
 

Pratters

Cricket, Lovely Cricket
luckyeddie said:
James was right - it doesn't take long for a thread like this to attract them. I guess our fears have been confirmed in less than an hour.
Agreed.
 

gs_86

Cricket Spectator
luckyeddie said:
Trip trap, trip trap, trip trap.
"Who's that crossing my bridge?" asked the Troll.
"It is I, Big Billy Goat Gruff" replied Luckyeddie

James was right - it doesn't take long for a thread like this to attract them. I guess our fears have been confirmed in less than an hour.
So your disagreeing with me, by quoting a nursery rhyme? Care to bring up which points you disagree with?
 

luckyeddie

Cricket Web Staff Member
gs_86 said:
So your disagreeing with me, by quoting a nursery rhyme? Care to bring up which points you disagree with?
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you - rather that I am accusing you of joining Cricket Web purely with the aim of making deliberately inflammatory statements.

If I'm wrong, I apologise forthwith - but you seem to have made a very contentious start.
 

Top