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Aren't the Englaishmen getting carried away??

Read this, taken from Mirror

14 September 2005
BOTHAM: VAUGHAN'S HEROES WILL BE ON TOP FOR YEARS TO COME
Ian Botham
SELDOM, if ever, do I get goosebumps just from watching sport because I've never been a soppy Mills and Boon romantic.

But when Michael Vaughan led England's players on their lap of honour around The Oval on Monday night, I felt the hairs stand on the back of my neck.

In the space of six years, England have gone from being the worst Test side in the world to toppling one of the best teams of all time and recapturing the Ashes.

When we lost to New Zealand at The Oval in 1999, it was almost embarrassing to mention our cricket team because we were as bad as the Eskimos and the Teletubbies - except Tinky Winky, Dipsy, La-La and Po probably had a better attack than ours.

But today we can puff out our chests because, in my opinion, England now have the best team in the world, bar none. That's right - numero uno.

At full strength, I can't see anyone living with Vaughan's pace attack, and that includes Australia in 14 months when we travel there for the next Ashes series. In fact, I can't see the Aussies getting near us for a few years Two all-time greats, Shane Warne and Glenn McGrath, are coming to the end of their careers, their ageing batting line-up is on the verge of being broken up and the empire is crumbling.


Jason Gillespie suffered a dramatic loss of form, which was great news for England but also a sad sight, and Brett Lee is a fantastic competitor but his Ashes wickets remain expensive.


So if England head Down Under next year with the same attack as the one which brought home the Ashes - and barring injuries, I can't see any reason why they shouldn't - it will be the same result.


As we saw from the incredible scenes around Trafalgar Square yesterday, Vaughan's team has captured the imagination of the whole country, and this is only the beginning of the success story.


English cricket is on the verge of something very special, a golden era, and I am so proud of them I would go to the other end of the moon to watch England play cricket now.


It wasn't always like that. For years, I used to sit in the commentary box and tell people how good England were even though I was lying through my teeth. Now, though, when I say England are a terrific side, I genuinely mean it.


In two weeks, Freddie Flintoff will go to Australia to play for the Rest of the World XI in the Super Seriesand he will walk off the plane as the best all-rounder in the world by a mile - and arguably the greatest cricketer on the planet This year's Ashes will always be synonymous with Freddie's brilliant batting, lion-hearted bowling, his sportsmanship and charisma. When the Aussies have nightmares about losing the Ashes, they will wake up in a cold sweat and see Flintoff's face.


And the remarkable thing about Flintoff's impact is that, only six months ago, he had to cancel his honeymoon because he was racing to be fit for the Ashes after a serious ankle operation.


Freddie didn't just come back as good as new - he came back better than ever, and his physio Dave 'Rooster' Roberts deserves a huge amount of credit for bullying, cajoling and nursing Flintoff back to rude health.


It's wonderful that cricket lovers no longer need to go back to 25-year-old videos of the good old days for a reminder of what it was like to beat the Aussies.


In years to come, the class of 2005 will be remembered as fondly as any England cricket team.


Since Jonny Wilkinson's World Cup-winning dropped goal, England's rugby fortunes have been mixed, but I can see Vaughan's men going from strength to strength.


This winter they go to Pakistan and India, two countries who are incredibly difficult to beat in their own back yards, and I expect England to prevail.Last time in Pakistan, we left it until the last shaft of daylight before Graham Thorpe clinched that remarkable win in Karachi, but we have the firepower to make it past the post before the moon rises this time.
 

social

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
a. it's Botham

b. it's the Mirror

c. let them enjoy their brief moment in the sun
 
I found some of the stuff hard to believe, i mean i do agree that the English team has the best pace attack in the world, but to say that noone can even compete with such a great attack and Austrlia wouldn't even come near England is going too far.

Also i do agree that Flintoff is the best allrounder in the world today, but to call him the greatest cricketer on the planet is a laugh.
 

Deja moo

International Captain
Why do i have a feeling this article will make it to the next "What they said.." thread 14 months on ?
 

social

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Deja moo said:
Why do i have a feeling this article will make it to the next "What they said.." thread 14 months on ?
Or maybe in a few weeks when the English roll up to Pakistan and have a look at the wicket, the ball they'll be using, and their injury toll.
 
My point is that Ashes series was close, and it wasn't as if England thrashed Australia in the series. There is no point denying that England has a very good team and they MIGHT bbecome the number one team of the world in future, but to say that no team can compete with England's bowling attack and that Australia can't even come close to England sounds very stupid to me.

Astralian team is not finished yet, and they still have the number one pacer in McGrath and number one spinner in Warne in their team.Yeah they are getting old, but no sign of againg so far, and if Australia can come up with two more good bowlers, then they might send England crashing to defeat in the next series.
 

greg

International Debutant
Deja moo said:
Why do i have a feeling this article will make it to the next "What they said.." thread 14 months on ?
Well considering Aus would have probably lost this series (and been thrashed in the process) 3or4-1 if Warne hadn't been playing they at the very least have to find some serious improvement before next time (assuming England are injury free of course). Now maybe they will do that, but I haven't yet seen anyone make a convincing case based on the players available.

The slight air of desperation can be seen in the press quotes that they need to "find a Flintoff" - you don't produce these sort of players in 14 months, it takes years. Of course they may produce someone who manages to click for one series, but that's something that they can hope for more than expect.

And it is the Daily Mirror. What do you expect? But the prediction seems no more ludicrous than the claims that England might regain the Ashes seemed to many australians at the start of the summer.
 

Deja moo

International Captain
greg said:
Well considering Aus would have probably lost this series (and been thrashed in the process) 3or4-1 if Warne hadn't been playing they at the very least have to find some serious improvement before next time (assuming England are injury free of course). Now maybe they will do that, but I haven't yet seen anyone make a convincing case based on the players available.

The slight air of desperation can be seen in the press quotes that they need to "find a Flintoff" - you don't produce these sort of players in 14 months, it takes years. Of course they may produce someone who manages to click for one series, but that's something that they can hope for more than expect.

And it is the Daily Mirror. What do you expect? But the prediction seems no more ludicrous than the claims that England might regain the Ashes seemed to many australians at the start of the summer.
yeah, but on the other hand, if an uninjured McGrath had been playing, it might well have been 3-0 to Australia after 3 tests even without an Australian equivalent of Flintoff, so it works both ways.
 

Choora

State Regular
At full strength, I can't see anyone living with Vaughan's pace attack, and that includes Australia in 14 months when we travel there for the next Ashes series. In fact, I can't see the Aussies getting near us for a few years
They indeed have a very good attack, but they still don't have a good spinner, something they might miss while playing in subcontinent! Also, i don't think Warne will fade away in 14 months, and McGrath can last till 14 months too.Botham wouldn't like to believe it, but Australia might have as good a bowling attack as England will have in 14 months!

he will walk off the plane as the best all-rounder in the world by a mile - and arguably the greatest cricketer on the planet
How can he be labelled as the greatest cricketer on planet????? His performance was great in the Ashes series, but that performance doesn't make him the greatest player!!

Last time in Pakistan, we left it until the last shaft of daylight before Graham Thorpe clinched that remarkable win in Karachi, but we have the firepower to make it past the post before the moon rises this time.
He sounds as if England will be facing Bangladesh. England indeed will start as fav's and will probably win the test series but to say that they will just roll over Pakistan seems just plain stupid to me.


I think Botham is an idiot!
 

Choora

State Regular
Deja moo said:
yeah, but on the other hand, if an uninjured McGrath had been playing, it might well have been 3-0 to Australia after 3 tests even without an Australian equivalent of Flintoff, so it works both ways.
Thats true, the injury to McGrath was a serious blow to Australia.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
GladiatrsInBlue said:
Also i do agree that Flintoff is the best allrounder in the world today, but to call him the greatest cricketer on the planet is a laugh.
Well yes, because Sobers is still very much alive.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
GladiatrsInBlue said:
Astralian team is not finished yet, and they still have the number one pacer in McGrath and number one spinner in Warne in their team.Yeah they are getting old, but no sign of againg so far,
I would say that is the one thing they are showing signs of as a team.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Choora said:
How can he be labelled as the greatest cricketer on planet????? His performance was great in the Ashes series, but that performance doesn't make him the greatest player!!
It's not just been one series though, it's been 2 years plus.
 

greg

International Debutant
Choora said:
How can he be labelled as the greatest cricketer on planet????? His performance was great in the Ashes series, but that performance doesn't make him the greatest player!!
"arguably the greatest cricketer on the planet." I don't really understand the problem with this statement, unless you are claiming that nobody can be labelled as such.
 

Choora

State Regular
marc71178 said:
It's not just been one series though, it's been 2 years plus.
In 2 years his performace was good but not all that great! And even for the sake of argument we agree that his performace has been great in past two years, even then there is no way that he can be labelled as the greatest cricket on Earth.
 

sqwerty

U19 Cricketer
greg said:
Well considering Aus would have probably lost this series (and been thrashed in the process) 3or4-1 if Warne hadn't been playing they at the very least have to find some serious improvement before next time (assuming England are injury free of course). Now maybe they will do that, but I haven't yet seen anyone make a convincing case based on the players available.

The slight air of desperation can be seen in the press quotes that they need to "find a Flintoff" - you don't produce these sort of players in 14 months, it takes years. Of course they may produce someone who manages to click for one series, but that's something that they can hope for more than expect.

And it is the Daily Mirror. What do you expect? But the prediction seems no more ludicrous than the claims that England might regain the Ashes seemed to many australians at the start of the summer.
All credit to England but.......

Sure, if Warne wasn't playing Australia would have done worse.......what a stupid statement.........If Flintoff wasn't playing England would have lost....what's the difference??

The fact is if weather hadn't intervened England would have won the 3rd test but Australia would have won the 5th (having scored 2-280 in decent conditions and then losing 8-90 in the dark)......so 3-2 would have been a fair reflection.

And even though England did outplay Australia the fact that Australia played WELL below its best had nothing to do with 'how well England allowed them to play' when it comes to fielding and bowling no balls.

I dare say if Australia had simply CAUGHT as well as England Australia would have won the ashes. I'm not saying they had to catch everything, but just match England.....Not much to ask really.

Go back and have a look at all the very catchable catches Australia dropped and how much it cost them. That stat alone would have swayed the result regardless of how well England bowled.

There's no doubt England are a very good team and will get better in the coming years but until they get a keeper who can catch, a reliable middle order, a spinner that takes wickets, some more good results away from home and at least one back up seamer they can pick when their frontliners get injured then they can hardly be considered great.

At the moment they have an excellent pace attack, an outstanding all-rounder, a few handy bats (but no standouts) and a ton of team spirit and self belief. It's a good start at least.
 

greg

International Debutant
GladiatrsInBlue said:
.

Astralian team is not finished yet, and they still have the number one pacer in McGrath and number one spinner in Warne in their team.Yeah they are getting old, but no sign of againg so far
It's not just about limbs. They've got to have the desire to carry on as well. I have no doubt that Warne if he wanted could play in the next Ashes series in England. But like he said International cricket is not just about turning up on the morning of the game and rolling your arm over.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Choora said:
In 2 years his performace was good but not all that great!
Last 6 series (OK this is 18 months)

The Wisden Trophy (Eng/WI) in West Indies, 2003/04 [Series]
Eng 4 200 102* 50.00 1 0 11 5/58 27.00 1 7 0
New Zealand in England, 2004 [Series]
Eng 3 216 94 54.00 0 3 10 3/60 29.10 0 2 0
The Wisden Trophy (Eng/WI) in England, 2004 [Series]
Eng 4 387 167 64.50 1 3 14 3/25 21.21 0 5 0
Basil D'Oliveira Trophy (Eng/SA) in South Africa, 2004/05 [Series]
Eng 5 227 77 28.37 0 2 23 4/44 24.95 0 2 0
Bangladesh in England, 2005 [Series]
Eng 2 - - - - - 9 3/44 15.33 0 1 0
The Ashes (Aus/Eng) in England, 2005 [Series]
Eng 5 402 102 40.20 1 3 24 5/78 27.29 1 3 0

What more do you want from him?

Runs against Bangladesh?!
 

Choora

State Regular
greg said:
"arguably the greatest cricketer on the planet." I don't really understand the problem with this statement, unless you are claiming that nobody can be labelled as such.
My objection is that not anybody should be labelled like that!

Flintoff's performance in the last two years is not that great to make him the greatest cricketer on Earth.
 

greg

International Debutant
sqwerty said:
All credit to England but.......

Sure, if Warne wasn't playing Australia would have done worse.......what a stupid statement.........If Flintoff wasn't playing England would have lost....what's the difference??

The fact is if weather hadn't intervened England would have won the 3rd test but Australia would have won the 5th (having scored 2-280 in decent conditions and then losing 8-90 in the dark)......so 3-2 would have been a fair reflection.

And even though England did outplay Australia the fact that Australia played WELL below its best had nothing to do with 'how well England allowed them to play' when it comes to fielding and bowling no balls.

I dare say if Australia had simply CAUGHT as well as England Australia would have won the ashes. I'm not saying they had to catch everything, but just match England.....Not much to ask really.

Go back and have a look at all the very catchable catches Australia dropped and how much it cost them. That stat alone would have swayed the result regardless of how well England bowled.

There's no doubt England are a very good team and will get better in the coming years but until they get a keeper who can catch, a reliable middle order, a spinner that takes wickets, some more good results away from home and at least one back up seamer they can pick when their frontliners get injured then they can hardly be considered great.

At the moment they have an excellent pace attack, an outstanding all-rounder, a few handy bats (but no standouts) and a ton of team spirit and self belief. It's a good start at least.
Of course you don't have to agree with his prediction, but then you didn't have to agree with his prediction that England would win the Ashes and Simon Jones would have a massive influence on England's attack :D

You don't have to accept the thesis that England are a team on the (rapid) ascent whereas Australia are on the decline (with serious decisions to make, possibly deliberately weakening their team in the short term for its long term health) and that this series merely represents the point (or close to the point, with consideration for McGrath's injury) at which they cross. However it is a reasonable hypothesis which if accurate could well lead to Australia struggling greatly in 14 months time. Nobody is saying that this England team are great (or even have the potential to be "Great") but that with the cricketing landscape as they currently see it they could be a long way ahead of the rest in a couple of years time. They are already, arguably, a long way ahead of (and improving faster than) every team apart from Australia. If australia fall away then what he says seems entirely reasonable.
 

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