why wasim and waqar were accused of ball tempering?

[Swervy]

Originally Posted by C_C

Now please tell me where in that whole blinkin article did Sarfaraz say that ball tampering only happened in Pakistan as you are alluding.

that isnt the issue is it???? The issue was whether the Pakistan bowlers tampered with the ball.

'He hinted that doctoring the ball was a practice but not any more. "Shoaib Akhtar and Mohammed Sami have been getting the ball to go reverse in this series and that is all without the bottle tops or anything," he said. He was responding to a TNN query on the recent remarks made by his former teammate Abdul Qadir who claimed that reverse swing wasn't possible without tampering with the ball.

"I know what Qadir was hinting at. Earlier, the ball would start to reverse swing from the tenth over itself. This is a thing of the past but now with so much check on the state of the ball it is impossible to change its condition." Sarfraz, who is hailed as one of the pioneers of reverse swing, accepted that ball doctoring was on in his playing days. '

[C_C]

The issue was whether the Pakistan bowlers tampered with the ball.

The whole issue is, blaming the Pakistani bowlers when the entire frickin world is guilty of the same thing.
This is similar to Muralitharan issue- after it has been categorically PROVED that 99.9% bowlers have elbow flexion, people still go 'Murali has a questionable action'....hell, McGrath,Holding,Kapil, Trueman etc. ALL had questionable actions when analysed minutely.

What p*sses me off is when some of you roundly criticise certain bowlers for tampering or chucking when almost ALL are guilty of the same. I find the sheer hypocrasy astounding. Its like castigating a leper in a leper colony.
i certainly dont see you saying Botham was a ball tamperer too, particularly since Imran produced video evidence to show that Botham tampered with the ball.

'He hinted that doctoring the ball was a practice but not any more.

And Sarfaraz, who's played against many a bowler and played in many a different locations, most definately was talking JUST about Pakistani bowlers doctoring the ball, wasnt he ? Or is that an assumption you made, given the baloney and hypocritical media hype from 1992 ENG-PAK series ?

[Swervy]

Originally Posted by C_C

The whole issue is, blaming the Pakistani bowlers when the entire frickin world is guilty of the same thing.
This is similar to Muralitharan issue- after it has been categorically PROVED that 99.9% bowlers have elbow flexion, people still go 'Murali has a questionable action'....hell, McGrath,Holding,Kapil, Trueman etc. ALL had questionable actions when analysed minutely.

What p*sses me off is when some of you roundly criticise certain bowlers for tampering or chucking when almost ALL are guilty of the same. I find the sheer hypocrasy astounding. Its like castigating a leper in a leper colony.
i certainly dont see you saying Botham was a ball tamperer too, particularly since Imran produced video evidence to show that Botham tampered with the ball.



And Sarfaraz, who's played against many a bowler and played in many a different locations, most definately was talking JUST about Pakistani bowlers doctoring the ball, wasnt he ? Or is that an assumption you made, given the baloney and hypocritical media hype from 1992 ENG-PAK series ?

the issue is whether W & W tampered with the ball..not whether others did. I am sure others did as well, but I would say no-one has had more success from doing it than some of those Pakistan bowlers.

So now you are changing from saying we have no proof that they did it, to almost acceptance that they did and so did everyone else.

[C_C]

So now you are changing from saying we have no proof that they did it, to almost acceptance that they did and so did everyone else.

We HAVE no categoric evidence that they did it- atleast not Wasim. You cannot accuse anyone of anything without categoric evidence, nomatter what your prejudices are.
And yes, ball tampering is widespread even to this day. When a team starts to reverse it from the 15th over, one wonders.

the issue is whether W & W tampered with the ball..not whether others did.

If the others did it and it is a common practice, then why is it an issue ?
Dont you see the hypocrasy of disparaging a leper in a country of lepers ?
Its either a non-issue because almost everyone has done it at one point or another or it is an issue for the entire bolwing community.
Pick one. If you criticise Wasim or Waqar or Imran for balltampering, i expect you to criticise Botham, Holding, etc. for ball tampering as well.
If you criticise Murali for chucking, i expect you to criticise Warney, McGrath, Flintoff, etc. for chucking as well.
Not doing that is being hypocritical.

[Swervy]

Originally Posted by C_C

We HAVE no categoric evidence that they did it- atleast not Wasim. You cannot accuse anyone of anything without categoric evidence, nomatter what your prejudices are.
And yes, ball tampering is widespread even to this day. When a team starts to reverse it from the 15th over, one wonders.



If the others did it and it is a common practice, then why is it an issue ?
Dont you see the hypocrasy of disparaging a leper in a country of lepers ?
Its either a non-issue because almost everyone has done it at one point or another or it is an issue for the entire bolwing community.
Pick one. If you criticise Wasim or Waqar or Imran for balltampering, i expect you to criticise Botham, Holding, etc. for ball tampering as well.
If you criticise Murali for chucking, i expect you to criticise Warney, McGrath, Flintoff, etc. for chucking as well.
Not doing that is being hypocritical.

Botham was never shown to be ball tampering..any evidence Imran submitted to court was actually withdrawn as Imran didnt think it was enough to suggest he tampered with the ball.

Despite no actual evidence that Wasim did it, he surely received the benefit of others doing it (Aqib)

[C_C]

Botham was never shown to be ball tampering..any evidence Imran submitted to court was actually withdrawn as Imran didnt think it was enough to suggest he tampered with the ball.

I dont care what was shown on public television or not. I got news for you- the live broadcast works in a sequential fashion, where one camera takes over from another after a certain amout of time....what the other camera is recording is not shown unless you wanna go through the entire reel.
The same court that rejected Imran's evidence about Botham also rejected Botham's libellious case against Imran. Only difference is, Imran was man enough to own up to a common practice.

Despite no actual evidence that Wasim did it, he surely received the benefit of others doing it (Aqib)

So if that doesnt stop you from disparaging Wasim, what stops you from disparaging Gough or Fraser, Caddick etc ? Surely they also benifitted from Atherton's tampering !


Again, why are you castigating a few for a practice that is done by many ?
Simply because of yer bullshyte media hype from a few tabloid journalism ?

Do you or dont you see the hypocrasy in trying to kick Bin Laden outta an entire village because he is a terrorist when the village comprises of half the IRA, Mossad, AAMB, Hezbollah, Unabomber, etc ?

[wahindiawah]

Originally Posted by Swervy

erm....have a read...I think I understand what he was talking about

http://deccanherald.com/deccanherald/apr092004/sp4.asp

ooh..and what about this one:

http://cricket.indiatimes.com/articleshow/617492.cms

Oh so you think you do understand? Abdul Qadir in his last statement (on that subject)said clearly that he was misunderstood on ball tampering subject and that he never said that ball was being tampered by illlegeal means.

Now whats the point in quoting those statement while ignoring his last clarified statement???

[Swervy]

Originally Posted by C_C

I dont care what was shown on public television or not. I got news for you- the live broadcast works in a sequential fashion, where one camera takes over from another after a certain amout of time....what the other camera is recording is not shown unless you wanna go through the entire reel.

so you seen this then?

Originally Posted by C_C

The same court that rejected Imran's evidence about Botham also rejected Botham's libellious case against Imran. Only difference is, Imran was man enough to own up to a common practice.

irrelevent

Originally Posted by C_C

So if that doesnt stop you from disparaging Wasim, what stops you from disparaging Gough or Fraser, Caddick etc ? Surely they also benifitted from Atherton's tampering !?

fair enough

Originally Posted by C_C

Again, why are you castigating a few for a practice that is done by many ?
Simply because of yer bullshyte media hype from a few tabloid journalism ?

I saw it with me own eyes...hey and if its enough to make Mr Benaud raise an eyebrow, then somethings up

[wahindiawah]

Originally Posted by Swervy

Despite no actual evidence that Wasim did it, he surely received the benefit of others doing it (Aqib)

Oh God

[Swervy]

Originally Posted by wahindiawah

Oh so you think you do understand? Abdul Qadir in his last statement (on that subject)said clearly that he was misunderstood on ball tampering subject and that he never said that ball was being tampered by illlegeal means.

Now whats the point in quoting those statement while ignoring his last clarified statement???

he misunderstood??? B0ll0x...oh come on now..he had just been fired from a TV show because of his comments..any retraction after that must be taken with a pinch of salt

[C_C]

I saw it with me own eyes...hey and if its enough to make Mr Benaud raise an eyebrow, then somethings up

Okay. So since you didnt see Hitler, Hitler is perfectly fine, eh ?

so you seen this then?

I have seen many a bowler scratch the seam - from all nationalities, during one point of the match or another.

irrelevent

Totally relevant.
If the court didnt uphold Botham's libellious claim, then you got no case against Imran.
The fact that he said he tried bottle tops on the ball in FC matches simply shows that he is man enough to fess up something that is common place and Botham wasnt honest enough to fess up- despite the evidence being equally inconclusive against them both.
I suppose when Mikey Holding said that every single bowler he's ever come across tampers with the ball, he was just lying or being faceteous.
And that just is 'irrelevant' in yer prejudiced mind.

[C_C]

Originally Posted by Swervy

he misunderstood??? B0ll0x...oh come on now..he had just been fired from a TV show because of his comments..any retraction after that must be taken with a pinch of salt

Do we take the same comments by English journos, who were much further from the action than AQ with the same pinch of salt ?

[wahindiawah]

Originally Posted by Swervy

he misunderstood??? B0ll0x...oh come on now..he had just been fired from a TV show because of his comments..any retraction after that must be taken with a pinch of salt

So can his initial statement be taken that way!!

Quoting statements like that aren't any proof. IN any case what amazes me about Ball tampering is that Bothom once said that reverse swing is not possible without ball tampering, inteestingly he seems to be mum now that English bowlers have mastered the art.

I personally think use to fingernail should be allowed to scratch the ball, even if its not allowed officially i'm sure playes will continue to sectly do it worldwide.

[wahindiawah]

Originally Posted by Swervy

the issue is whether W & W tampered with the ball..not whether others did. I am sure others did as well, but I would say no-one has had more success from doing it than some of those Pakistan bowlers.

.

Is there any real difference between those two issue?

If others were doing ball tampering as well then why raise the issue of W's doing ball tampering?? thats actually laughable.

W's had success because they were class act, others simply couldn't match them.Akram for one could even make orange swing, the guy simply had amazing talent.

[wahindiawah]

Originally Posted by Top_Cat

Short of using bottle-tops or anything 'artificial', a bowler should be able to do with the ball what he wants. If he can make the ball bend around when bits of seam are falling off it by using fingernails/spit, etc. that's skill, not cheating. It's a calculated risk too because if a bowler is affecting the ball and buggers it up, then it's his fault when the ball stops moving. Plus, having a ball which moves everywhere is useless if you can't bowl it in the right areas so there's still plenty of skill required.

.

Completely agreed. I think lifting the seam with fingernails won't be outlawed in future.If you can use saliva and sweat on the ball then you should be able to use fingernails too, especially when we all know that bowlers will continue to use their fingernails whether its allowed or not.