why wasim and waqar were accused of ball tempering?

[Swervy]

Now please tell me where in that whole blinkin article did Sarfaraz say that ball tampering only happened in Pakistan as you are alluding.

that isnt the issue is it???? The issue was whether the Pakistan bowlers tampered with the ball.

'He hinted that doctoring the ball was a practice but not any more. "Shoaib Akhtar and Mohammed Sami have been getting the ball to go reverse in this series and that is all without the bottle tops or anything," he said. He was responding to a TNN query on the recent remarks made by his former teammate Abdul Qadir who claimed that reverse swing wasn't possible without tampering with the ball.

"I know what Qadir was hinting at. Earlier, the ball would start to reverse swing from the tenth over itself. This is a thing of the past but now with so much check on the state of the ball it is impossible to change its condition." Sarfraz, who is hailed as one of the pioneers of reverse swing, accepted that ball doctoring was on in his playing days. '

 

[C_C]

The issue was whether the Pakistan bowlers tampered with the ball.

The whole issue is, blaming the Pakistani bowlers when the entire frickin world is guilty of the same thing.
This is similar to Muralitharan issue- after it has been categorically PROVED that 99.9% bowlers have elbow flexion, people still go 'Murali has a questionable action'....hell, McGrath,Holding,Kapil, Trueman etc. ALL had questionable actions when analysed minutely.

What p*sses me off is when some of you roundly criticise certain bowlers for tampering or chucking when almost ALL are guilty of the same. I find the sheer hypocrasy astounding. Its like castigating a leper in a leper colony.
i certainly dont see you saying Botham was a ball tamperer too, particularly since Imran produced video evidence to show that Botham tampered with the ball.

'He hinted that doctoring the ball was a practice but not any more.

And Sarfaraz, who's played against many a bowler and played in many a different locations, most definately was talking JUST about Pakistani bowlers doctoring the ball, wasnt he ? Or is that an assumption you made, given the baloney and hypocritical media hype from 1992 ENG-PAK series ?

 

[Swervy]

The whole issue is, blaming the Pakistani bowlers when the entire frickin world is guilty of the same thing.
This is similar to Muralitharan issue- after it has been categorically PROVED that 99.9% bowlers have elbow flexion, people still go 'Murali has a questionable action'....hell, McGrath,Holding,Kapil, Trueman etc. ALL had questionable actions when analysed minutely.

What p*sses me off is when some of you roundly criticise certain bowlers for tampering or chucking when almost ALL are guilty of the same. I find the sheer hypocrasy astounding. Its like castigating a leper in a leper colony.
i certainly dont see you saying Botham was a ball tamperer too, particularly since Imran produced video evidence to show that Botham tampered with the ball.



And Sarfaraz, who's played against many a bowler and played in many a different locations, most definately was talking JUST about Pakistani bowlers doctoring the ball, wasnt he ? Or is that an assumption you made, given the baloney and hypocritical media hype from 1992 ENG-PAK series ?

the issue is whether W & W tampered with the ball..not whether others did. I am sure others did as well, but I would say no-one has had more success from doing it than some of those Pakistan bowlers.

So now you are changing from saying we have no proof that they did it, to almost acceptance that they did and so did everyone else.

 

[C_C]

So now you are changing from saying we have no proof that they did it, to almost acceptance that they did and so did everyone else.

We HAVE no categoric evidence that they did it- atleast not Wasim. You cannot accuse anyone of anything without categoric evidence, nomatter what your prejudices are.
And yes, ball tampering is widespread even to this day. When a team starts to reverse it from the 15th over, one wonders.

the issue is whether W & W tampered with the ball..not whether others did.

If the others did it and it is a common practice, then why is it an issue ?
Dont you see the hypocrasy of disparaging a leper in a country of lepers ?
Its either a non-issue because almost everyone has done it at one point or another or it is an issue for the entire bolwing community.
Pick one. If you criticise Wasim or Waqar or Imran for balltampering, i expect you to criticise Botham, Holding, etc. for ball tampering as well.
If you criticise Murali for chucking, i expect you to criticise Warney, McGrath, Flintoff, etc. for chucking as well.
Not doing that is being hypocritical.

 

[Swervy]

We HAVE no categoric evidence that they did it- atleast not Wasim. You cannot accuse anyone of anything without categoric evidence, nomatter what your prejudices are.
And yes, ball tampering is widespread even to this day. When a team starts to reverse it from the 15th over, one wonders.



If the others did it and it is a common practice, then why is it an issue ?
Dont you see the hypocrasy of disparaging a leper in a country of lepers ?
Its either a non-issue because almost everyone has done it at one point or another or it is an issue for the entire bolwing community.
Pick one. If you criticise Wasim or Waqar or Imran for balltampering, i expect you to criticise Botham, Holding, etc. for ball tampering as well.
If you criticise Murali for chucking, i expect you to criticise Warney, McGrath, Flintoff, etc. for chucking as well.
Not doing that is being hypocritical.

Botham was never shown to be ball tampering..any evidence Imran submitted to court was actually withdrawn as Imran didnt think it was enough to suggest he tampered with the ball.

Despite no actual evidence that Wasim did it, he surely received the benefit of others doing it (Aqib)

 

[C_C]

Botham was never shown to be ball tampering..any evidence Imran submitted to court was actually withdrawn as Imran didnt think it was enough to suggest he tampered with the ball.

I dont care what was shown on public television or not. I got news for you- the live broadcast works in a sequential fashion, where one camera takes over from another after a certain amout of time....what the other camera is recording is not shown unless you wanna go through the entire reel.
The same court that rejected Imran's evidence about Botham also rejected Botham's libellious case against Imran. Only difference is, Imran was man enough to own up to a common practice.

Despite no actual evidence that Wasim did it, he surely received the benefit of others doing it (Aqib)

So if that doesnt stop you from disparaging Wasim, what stops you from disparaging Gough or Fraser, Caddick etc ? Surely they also benifitted from Atherton's tampering !


Again, why are you castigating a few for a practice that is done by many ?
Simply because of yer bullshyte media hype from a few tabloid journalism ?

Do you or dont you see the hypocrasy in trying to kick Bin Laden outta an entire village because he is a terrorist when the village comprises of half the IRA, Mossad, AAMB, Hezbollah, Unabomber, etc ?

 

[wahindiawah]

erm....have a read...I think I understand what he was talking about

http://deccanherald.com/deccanherald/apr092004/sp4.asp

ooh..and what about this one:

http://cricket.indiatimes.com/articleshow/617492.cms

Oh so you think you do understand? Abdul Qadir in his last statement (on that subject)said clearly that he was misunderstood on ball tampering subject and that he never said that ball was being tampered by illlegeal means.

Now whats the point in quoting those statement while ignoring his last clarified statement???

 

[Swervy]

I dont care what was shown on public television or not. I got news for you- the live broadcast works in a sequential fashion, where one camera takes over from another after a certain amout of time....what the other camera is recording is not shown unless you wanna go through the entire reel.

so you seen this then?

The same court that rejected Imran's evidence about Botham also rejected Botham's libellious case against Imran. Only difference is, Imran was man enough to own up to a common practice.

irrelevent

So if that doesnt stop you from disparaging Wasim, what stops you from disparaging Gough or Fraser, Caddick etc ? Surely they also benifitted from Atherton's tampering !?

fair enough

Again, why are you castigating a few for a practice that is done by many ?
Simply because of yer bullshyte media hype from a few tabloid journalism ?

I saw it with me own eyes...hey and if its enough to make Mr Benaud raise an eyebrow, then somethings up

 

[wahindiawah]

Despite no actual evidence that Wasim did it, he surely received the benefit of others doing it (Aqib)

Oh God

 

[Swervy]

Oh so you think you do understand? Abdul Qadir in his last statement (on that subject)said clearly that he was misunderstood on ball tampering subject and that he never said that ball was being tampered by illlegeal means.

Now whats the point in quoting those statement while ignoring his last clarified statement???

he misunderstood??? B0ll0x...oh come on now..he had just been fired from a TV show because of his comments..any retraction after that must be taken with a pinch of salt

 

[C_C]

I saw it with me own eyes...hey and if its enough to make Mr Benaud raise an eyebrow, then somethings up

Okay. So since you didnt see Hitler, Hitler is perfectly fine, eh ?

so you seen this then?

I have seen many a bowler scratch the seam - from all nationalities, during one point of the match or another.

irrelevent

Totally relevant.
If the court didnt uphold Botham's libellious claim, then you got no case against Imran.
The fact that he said he tried bottle tops on the ball in FC matches simply shows that he is man enough to fess up something that is common place and Botham wasnt honest enough to fess up- despite the evidence being equally inconclusive against them both.
I suppose when Mikey Holding said that every single bowler he's ever come across tampers with the ball, he was just lying or being faceteous.
And that just is 'irrelevant' in yer prejudiced mind.

 

[C_C]

he misunderstood??? B0ll0x...oh come on now..he had just been fired from a TV show because of his comments..any retraction after that must be taken with a pinch of salt

Do we take the same comments by English journos, who were much further from the action than AQ with the same pinch of salt ?

 

[wahindiawah]

he misunderstood??? B0ll0x...oh come on now..he had just been fired from a TV show because of his comments..any retraction after that must be taken with a pinch of salt

So can his initial statement be taken that way!!

Quoting statements like that aren't any proof. IN any case what amazes me about Ball tampering is that Bothom once said that reverse swing is not possible without ball tampering, inteestingly he seems to be mum now that English bowlers have mastered the art.

I personally think use to fingernail should be allowed to scratch the ball, even if its not allowed officially i'm sure playes will continue to sectly do it worldwide.

 

[wahindiawah]

the issue is whether W & W tampered with the ball..not whether others did. I am sure others did as well, but I would say no-one has had more success from doing it than some of those Pakistan bowlers.

.

Is there any real difference between those two issue?

If others were doing ball tampering as well then why raise the issue of W's doing ball tampering?? thats actually laughable.

W's had success because they were class act, others simply couldn't match them.Akram for one could even make orange swing, the guy simply had amazing talent.

 

[wahindiawah]

Short of using bottle-tops or anything 'artificial', a bowler should be able to do with the ball what he wants. If he can make the ball bend around when bits of seam are falling off it by using fingernails/spit, etc. that's skill, not cheating. It's a calculated risk too because if a bowler is affecting the ball and buggers it up, then it's his fault when the ball stops moving. Plus, having a ball which moves everywhere is useless if you can't bowl it in the right areas so there's still plenty of skill required.

.

Completely agreed. I think lifting the seam with fingernails won't be outlawed in future.If you can use saliva and sweat on the ball then you should be able to use fingernails too, especially when we all know that bowlers will continue to use their fingernails whether its allowed or not.

 

[Sanz]

So now you are changing from saying we have no proof that they did it, to almost acceptance that they did and so did everyone else.

Dont tell me that is the only proof you have got to castigate an entire generation of Pakistani bowlers. Sarfaraz Nawaz Really has no credibility and I dont believe a single word that comes outta his <you know where> . It is a fact that Ball Tampering was and is there in county cricket.

 

[Sanz]

Despite no actual evidence that Wasim did it, he surely received the benefit of others doing it (Aqib)

And that makes him a ball tamperer cheat. doesn't it ??

 

[Sanz]

In his coulumn David Gower writes about the Reverse Swing and how well it was exploited by the Pakistanis :-

"I remember playing against Pakistan in the 1980s and early 1990s, ignorant, I have to admit, of this phenomenon and bemused how an older ball would continue to swing.

Wasim Akram and Waqar Younis were arch-exponents, but even the medium-pacers such as Mudassar Nazar enjoyed using the older ball. “Mud” did me for a pastime, it seemed, but he did get a few others too and was the destroyer at Lord’s in 1982 when he picked up a bagful of wickets quickly on the last day and set up a victory...."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,23069-1754584,00.html

 

[Sanz]

Akram: England should apologise

First it was Waqar and now it is the Sultan of Swing on how english press reported on Reverse Swing then and now, he also claims to have taught freddie the art of reverse swing (aka ball tampering in the british tabloid):-
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wasim Akram says England should apologise for accusing his team of cheating in 1992 when they used reverse swing. Akram and Waqar Younis used it to devastating effect in that series, and England employed the same art to similar effect all summer against Australia; Simon Jones and Andrew Flintoff were particularly adept at using it.

"England owe us an apology in a big way," Akram told AFP. "When we did the reverse swing against England in 1992, they were [the] great moaners and groaners of the world, [and] they termed it as cheating. And now when they achieved an Ashes win through reverse swing, it's an art," Akram said.

Akram, Pakistan's best left-arm seamer, and his pace partner Waqar Younis shattered England with a devastating display of reverse-swing bowling during Pakistan's tour of England in 1992, helping Pakistan to a 2-1 win.

England's tabloid press accused the pair, who took 41 wickets between them, of cheating and ball tampering. But England used the same technique to dismantle the much-touted Australian batting, and dethrone Australia as Ashes champions after a hard-fought 2-1 series which ended Monday.

"Now English bowlers know it, it's the art of reverse swing. Still, I am happy that they have finally realised the importance of reverse swing," Akram said yesterday.

Akram, who has taken 414 Test and a world record of 502 one-day wickets in his career, said Pakistani bowlers should be given credit for the reverse swing.

"This art has spread only because of Pakistani bowlers," he said. "Imran Khan taught me how to reverse swing the ball, I told Younis and we mastered it."

He said English all-rounder Andrew Flintoff learnt a lot from him while they both played county cricket for Lancashire in the late 1990s.

"He learnt how to hide the shine and he did that during the Ashes. Had I not told him, he would have learnt it anyway, but I am glad that he has learnt well. They have mastered the art of reverse swing and [the] Australians had no clue as to how to cope with the reverse swing," Akram said.

Source - Cricinfo.

 

[Swervy]

First it was Waqar and now it is the Sultan of Swing on how english press reported on Reverse Swing then and now, he also claims to have taught freddie the art of reverse swing (aka ball tampering in the british tabloid):-
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wasim Akram says England should apologise for accusing his team of cheating in 1992 when they used reverse swing. Akram and Waqar Younis used it to devastating effect in that series, and England employed the same art to similar effect all summer against Australia; Simon Jones and Andrew Flintoff were particularly adept at using it.

"England owe us an apology in a big way," Akram told AFP. "When we did the reverse swing against England in 1992, they were [the] great moaners and groaners of the world, [and] they termed it as cheating. And now when they achieved an Ashes win through reverse swing, it's an art," Akram said.

Akram, Pakistan's best left-arm seamer, and his pace partner Waqar Younis shattered England with a devastating display of reverse-swing bowling during Pakistan's tour of England in 1992, helping Pakistan to a 2-1 win.

England's tabloid press accused the pair, who took 41 wickets between them, of cheating and ball tampering. But England used the same technique to dismantle the much-touted Australian batting, and dethrone Australia as Ashes champions after a hard-fought 2-1 series which ended Monday.

"Now English bowlers know it, it's the art of reverse swing. Still, I am happy that they have finally realised the importance of reverse swing," Akram said yesterday.

Akram, who has taken 414 Test and a world record of 502 one-day wickets in his career, said Pakistani bowlers should be given credit for the reverse swing.

"This art has spread only because of Pakistani bowlers," he said. "Imran Khan taught me how to reverse swing the ball, I told Younis and we mastered it."

He said English all-rounder Andrew Flintoff learnt a lot from him while they both played county cricket for Lancashire in the late 1990s.

"He learnt how to hide the shine and he did that during the Ashes. Had I not told him, he would have learnt it anyway, but I am glad that he has learnt well. They have mastered the art of reverse swing and [the] Australians had no clue as to how to cope with the reverse swing," Akram said.

Source - Cricinfo.

oh diddums..is the spotlight not on wasim...poor boy oh dear (only kidding )

Just wondering though...does anyone really need to be taught how to hide the ball in the run up?????