Why are there no allrounders who bowl spin?

[Nate]

you think wrong then

D`oh.

 

[kof98]

http://content.cricinfo.com/ci/content/player/47267.html

 

[Shoaib]

Shoaib is definitely up there. was his action cleared by the ICC?

of course yes,thats why we saw him bowling in the last series.

 

[a massive zebra]

Intriguingly, on the other side of the coin, it seems to me (without doing any semblance of research, just going off instinct) that most genuine bunnies are quick bowlers. Yeah, you have your Tuffers and your Murali, but there's plenty more quickies along the lines of Walsh, McGrath, Hoggard, Harmison, Jones, Nehra, Steyn, Ntini, Edwards, Best, Lawson, Martin and Waqar.

Then, you've got your "number eights" - where spinners (Emburey, Titmus, Underwood, Giles, Warne, Vettori, Kumble, Harbhajan, Price, Herath, Bojé, Banks, Batty, White...) who can at least tell one end of a bat from the other greatly outnumber seamers who can bat (Vaas, Dion Nash, Lee, Naved-ul-Hasan, um...)

So Murali (avg 13) is a bunny and Underwood (avg 11) is a number 8, eh?

In the past there has been a lot of spin bowling all rounders, but that was a lot to do with the pitches that were used at that time. Some of these all rounder include the likes of A Faulkner, C Macartney, MA Noble, W Rhodes and M Tate. Out of the 'recent' players the only real all rounders of any note are R Benaud and M Mankad, but both of these players are more bowling all rounders.

Out of current players Daniel Vettori IMO is the only one that comes close to being a genuine all rounder, if you take in recent form. I don't think guys like Afridi, Gayle, Malik, Chandana, Boje are consistent enough in there weaker area to be all rounders.

Tate did not bowl spin for England, only rather unsuccessfully at the start of his county career.

I cannot understand the numerous nominations for Warne and Vettori. A few games of decent form does not does not entitle you to such status, I think people who nominate these players are just exposing their huge lack of cricketing understanding and knowledge. if they deserve to be nominees on an all-time allrounders list then so do Carl Hooper, Paul Reiffel and many others from years gone by such as George Hirst and Jimmy Sinclair.

 

[Run like Inzy]

What is this forum a joke? Look at the Sri lankan side: Jayasuriya, Chandana, Arnold. Pakistan: Afridi, Malik. India: Sehwag, Tendulkar, Yuvraj (not genuine but decent), Australia: Michael Clarke (under-utilized in my opinion), New Zealand: Daniel Vettori (shown good form with the bat recently), South Africa: Nicky Boje, West Indies: Chris Gayle, Ramneresh Sarwan, Omari Banks. Zimbabwe, Bangladesh and Kenya: Most players bowl some spin. England are the only team that lack a true spinning all rounder but Giles has shown signs of decent ability and Ian Blackwell may earn a one day call up again.

 

[steds]

Sarwan?!?!!?!?!

 

[luckyeddie]

What is this forum a joke? Look at the Sri lankan side: Jayasuriya, Chandana, Arnold. Pakistan: Afridi, Malik. India: Sehwag, Tendulkar, Yuvraj (not genuine but decent), Australia: Michael Clarke (under-utilized in my opinion), New Zealand: Daniel Vettori (shown good form with the bat recently), South Africa: Nicky Boje, West Indies: Chris Gayle, Ramneresh Sarwan, Omari Banks. Zimbabwe, Bangladesh and Kenya: Most players bowl some spin. England are the only team that lack a true spinning all rounder but Giles has shown signs of decent ability and Ian Blackwell may earn a one day call up again.

It could become a joke - if we work really hard at it and entertain thoughts that Russel Arnold is worth considering as anything other than a journeyman plodder. Where on earth did you get the idea he was an all-rounder? And Sehwag? Come on, now. He's a wonderful batsman but hardly worthy of being classed as quality all-rounder material. Some of your other names are equally unworthy - they are 'batsmen who bowl a bit', or in Boje's case, neither.

 

[Run like Inzy]

It could become a joke - if we work really hard at it and entertain thoughts that Russel Arnold is worth considering as anything other than a journeyman plodder. Where on earth did you get the idea he was an all-rounder? And Sehwag? Come on, now. He's a wonderful batsman but hardly worthy of being classed as quality all-rounder material. Some of your other names are equally unworthy - they are 'batsmen who bowl a bit', or in Boje's case, neither.

Accepted they aren't all that great but my point is there are plenty of all rounders who are spinners, some countries have more than others but in ODI's part time spinners are very useful and in some cases match winning. On a few occasions when regular spinners don't perform these part timers are the ones who pick up the crucial break throughs. If a question were to be asked on the topic it should be why aren't there any 'test quality' all rounders that ball spin.

 

[Blaze]

I cannot understand the numerous nominations for Warne and Vettori. A few games of decent form does not does not entitle you to such status, I think people who nominate these players are just exposing their huge lack of cricketing understanding and knowledge. if they deserve to be nominees on an all-time allrounders list then so do Carl Hooper, Paul Reiffel and many others from years gone by such as George Hirst and Jimmy Sinclair.

Vettori has two test match 100's and 9 half centries. He now averages over 24 in tests. You can tell that he is improving all the time by the fact that he has averaged over 40 in his last 20 tests and 50 in his last 10. I think 20 tests is a bit more than 'a few games of decent form'

In his first 44 tests he averaged 16.26 whereas since then in his last 20 tests he has averaged 42.48. I think that tells us that he is almost there.

 

[superkingdave]

Vettori has two test match 100's and 9 half centries. He now averages over 24 in tests. You can tell that he is improving all the time by the fact that he has averaged over 40 in his last 20 tests and 50 in his last 10. I think 20 tests is a bit more than 'a few games of decent form'

In his first 44 tests he averaged 16.26 whereas since then in his last 20 tests he has averaged 42.48. I think that tells us that he is almost there.

yes he is improving, but he actually only averages about 34 in his last 20 proper tests and about 31 in the last 10,

His bowling average incidentally is over 50 in the last 10, and the last 20, so i guess you could say he is in the side for his batting

 

[marc71178]

So Vettori has averaged 42 in his last 20 tests. If he had been playing as a specialist batsman and averaged that much in his last 20 tests there is no way you could leave him out of the side.

If he played as a specialt bat would he only be dismissed 23 times in 20 games?

 

[Majin]

What is this forum a joke? Look at the Sri lankan side: Jayasuriya, Chandana, Arnold. Pakistan: Afridi, Malik. India: Sehwag, Tendulkar, Yuvraj (not genuine but decent), Australia: Michael Clarke (under-utilized in my opinion), New Zealand: Daniel Vettori (shown good form with the bat recently), South Africa: Nicky Boje, West Indies: Chris Gayle, Ramneresh Sarwan, Omari Banks. Zimbabwe, Bangladesh and Kenya: Most players bowl some spin. England are the only team that lack a true spinning all rounder but Giles has shown signs of decent ability and Ian Blackwell may earn a one day call up again.

Take Vettori and Boje out of that list and then tell me which of those players you'd select on their bowling alone. To qualify as an all-rounder, you must be able to justify your selection in the team in both disciplines. I seriously Doubt India will be playing Sehwag as the maine spinner after Kumble has gone.

 

[steds]

You've forgotten the best spin bowling allrounder of all

 

[Prince EWS]

To qualify as an all-rounder, you must be able to justify your selection in the team in both disciplines.

Or neither discipline, as the case may be.

Many an allrounder has played on the basis of a mix of both.

 

[Magrat Garlick]

Maybe this is a crazy idea, but I have the impression that spinners really have to train up their bowling technique to become great. Inaccurate balls from spinners, or ones that don't turn, are really innocuous (see all the stick Gilo has got over the years, Ray Price, most Sri Lankans away from home), so there's a LOT of work to be done on pure precision terms. Fast bowlers, meanwhile, work on their entire physical condition (in addition to accuracy, of course), to bowl faster, so they become fitter and stronger, which is a useful asset when batting.

It wouldn't explain Neil's findings, though. Just a crazy thought I came up with when I saw this thread - certainly better than naming people

 

[Pothas]

I would say that is probably true it is certianly an art that needs perfecting. I think it is an intersting point about the lack of all rounders that are spinners as most of the people mentioned in this thread are batsmen that can spin it a bit and not really genuine all rounders. But with a lot of countries with a lack of talented spinners wanting spinners who can bat atleast at number 8 we may see more soon i suppose

 

[Shoaib]

Shoaib malik throws spin.......

Just like Mcgrath and Lee throw fast.

 

[Pothas]

yes bret lee does have a fast throw from the outfield doesnt he