Pontings captaincy

[social]

At last, Australia have found the natural successor to Waugh - Ricky can play as a batsman alone.

LE's Aussie team for Trent Bridge...

Langer
Hayden
Ponting
Martyn
Social's Cat(ish)*
Clarke
Adam's Goldfish
Warne
Lee
Kasprowicz
McGrath

Give me a combination of Holding, Garner, Marshall, Roberts, Daniel, Croft, Clarke, etc and a batting line-up with Haynes, Greenidge, IVA, Gomes , Lloyd, and Dujon and my cat could sleep in the sun (err, sorry ... asleep in the dressing room) whilst his team decimated either team on show.

 

[deeps]

Unbeatable ?? How many series win did Waugh have in India, SL ?

one loss, 2 rained out matches... hardly anything to write about

Waugh failed to win a series in WI when Ambrose/Walsh were playing. It was only after their retirement he was able to win against WI. He had Mcgrath/Gillespie/Warnie at their peak.

Like i said earlier, it takes an excellent performance to beat Waugh's aussies. Someone had to do something extra-ordinary.. A superhuman effort. In this case, it was Brian Lara. Warne was far from his peak, and was probably at his lowest ever in his entire illustrious career.

Waugh failed to win the series against India at home.

So did Border before, and Taylor and many others. Yes Gilchrist's side won it in India recently, but as to how good the Indian side was playing this time around as compared to last time, makes the victory alot less hollow.

And again, it was Gilchrist that captained all but one of the matches, and the one match that Punter captained, was a loss.

 

[deeps]

mark taylor made the australian side great, steve waugh to his credit carried on the traditions and the team even made some improvements under him, but he wasn't half the captain taylor was....

far from it. Taylors Australian side was merely good. Number one in the world, but not by much. Waugh took over, and they were easily the best test and one day side in the world. His tactics changed test cricket as we know it.

Waugh has done many things for cricket, and does not get the credit he deserves from the lesser fans of cricket. The slower ball is another example. A long dead and buried delivery, Waugh brought it back to life, and it is now a very common delivery in test and especially one day matches.

Test cricket used to be a slow game, with scores of 350 in a day unheard of. Waugh broke the boundaries and played aggressive test cricket, thus elimnating the draw more often that used to.

Taylor was a good captain, no doubt about it, but did he reach the heights of success that Waugh got to? no. Neither did Border, nor Ponting.

Sure, the teams change drastically from captain to captain, but essentially the team Ponting has is very similar to what Waugh had. The team that Taylor had, was similar to the team that Waugh inherited.

 

[King_Ponting]

one loss, 2 rained out matches... hardly anything to write about



Like i said earlier, it takes an excellent performance to beat Waugh's aussies. Someone had to do something extra-ordinary.. A superhuman effort. In this case, it was Brian Lara. Warne was far from his peak, and was probably at his lowest ever in his entire illustrious career.



So did Border before, and Taylor and many others. Yes Gilchrist's side won it in India recently, but as to how good the Indian side was playing this time around as compared to last time, makes the victory alot less hollow.

And again, it was Gilchrist that captained all but one of the matches, and the one match that Punter captained, was a loss.

See the pitch they played on? Part timer takes a 6 for. Enough said..

 

[deeps]

But I simply dont consider him a great leade based on the 2 series I watched. I do not agree with his mental disintegration either, in the name of mental disintegration his players abused opposition players, heckled them and he stood aloof or defended them most of the time and at other times he even encouraged them. I dont care how effective it was. Yes he led by example, but so is Ponting. Under ponting Aus have lost only 2 tests one in Mumbai and the other at Edgbaston one by 13 runs, the other by 2 runs.

Just because you do not agree with mental disintegration, doesn't mean he's a bad captain. He has a great disciplinary record, and played within the rules. If someone gave him flak, he was ready to give it back. It didn't matter who it was. Curtly Ambrose or Harbajan Singh, he would speak his mind.

You've watched two of his series, and you're passing judgement, when his record speaks for itself? Yes, ponting's record is good, but he really hasn't captained many games against a quality opposition.

Remember, Waugh captained against the West Indies when they were still a pretty damn good side, and also South Africa when they were considered equal with australia. He took the quality opposition head on, and showed Australia were top.

Atm, England are rated as high as South Africa was back then, and Pontings team is crumbling. They have a severe lack of spirit, seem to have lost enthusiasm and dont' have that killer instinct. Ponting has not been able to get the Australians up mentally. Waugh was a master at this. Second to none, even Taylor and Border included.

 

[deeps]

See the pitch they played on? Part timer takes a 6 for. Enough said..

Both teams batted on the same surface did they not?

If india's strength is meant to be their batting, then a bowling pitch should be the last thing they want. They still managed a win

 

[King_Ponting]

Both teams batted on the same surface did they not?

If india's strength is meant to be their batting, then a bowling pitch should be the last thing they want. They still managed a win

No,no more like australia's weakness has and still is batting on crumblers in india against a two prong spin attack. Australia batted last on that shocking deck, and india played 2 spinners... Australia only needed to chase down 100 odd and they ended up not even reaching the 100 mark. How much better can ponting captain???

 

[C_C]

Lloyd was a great man manager but tactically had literally nothing to do.

He simply threw the ball to any of 7 or 8 great fast bowlers and stacked everyone around the bat except cover and fine leg.

When it came to batting, he had a top class line-up including one of the best opening pairs ever and possibly the 2nd greatest batman ever, all playing at their peak.

His skill was in being being able to cause a group of unbelievably talented individuals from disparate island nations to take the field with a common goal. Once over the ropes, my cat could have captained that side to victory.

Umm... thats like saying Mark Taylor was a tactical doofus.
He is the one who took the 'pace like fire' to the n-th level and he personally pushed for the inclusion of Holding and Marshall from when they were playing club cricket and barely any FC experience.
He was also extremely adept at rotating his bowlers and he devised the Holding-Marshall partnership, perhaps the deadliest new ball pair to have bowled in the history of this game... took considerable nous, considering that Garner was ahead in seniority stakes.

Lloyd didnt inherit a great side like Punter did, he built it from scratch pretty much. That is the key difference and that is why his genius is widely acclaimed. Bobby Simpson and Imran Khan apart,i dont think there has been anyone who can challenge Lloyd in his tactical nous and bowling changes..... he was simply excellent at figuring out the batsmen's weaknesses and used considerbly different field placements for established batsmen than used ever before. For eg, no one before had tried to choke Greg Chappell's square cut, forgetting that it was his 'confidence shot' and not his silken drives that he was renowned for. Second time around, thats what Lloyd used. Result ? Chappell bombed out.

 

[C_C]

No,no more like australia's weakness has and still is batting on crumblers in india against a two prong spin attack. Australia batted last on that shocking deck, and india played 2 spinners... Australia only needed to chase down 100 odd and they ended up not even reaching the 100 mark. How much better can ponting captain???

You really wanna go down the road of Ponting and his gaffes as captain ?
Start with batting first on a deck that is historically known as the most spin-friendly pitch in England, missing his primier pace bowler and being pretty much reliant on his ace leg spinner, decieded to bat first.

 

[deeps]

No,no more like australia's weakness has and still is batting on crumblers in india against a two prong spin attack. Australia batted last on that shocking deck, and india played 2 spinners... Australia only needed to chase down 100 odd and they ended up not even reaching the 100 mark. How much better can ponting captain???

Ok fair enough. However i wasn't trying to say "Gilchrist captained, and they won, Ponting captained, and they losT"

the point i was making, is that it was not Ponting that won the series in india, but Gilchrist.

 

[King_Ponting]

You really wanna go down the road of Ponting and his gaffes as captain ?
Start with batting first on a deck that is historically known as the most spin-friendly pitch in England, missing his primier pace bowler and being pretty much reliant on his ace leg spinner, decieded to bat first.

That really did look like a green top to me.... However hindsight is a great thing isnt it.... If the deck actually did have a bit of zip and movement and punter chose to bat and the aussies got bowled out before tea, everyone would be saying "Punter it was a green top, why didnt u bat, u idiot". Cant have it both ways.....

 

[deeps]

doesn't explain the lack of 'life' in the team, the lack of planning to batsman, the lack of creativity in bowling changes and field placings, just to name a few things

 

[King_Ponting]

doesn't explain the lack of 'life' in the team, the lack of planning to batsman, the lack of creativity in bowling changes and field placings, just to name a few things

I wont defend ponting on this, it is an aspect of his captaincy that i believe needs some work. I believe the whole australian team has got the "im better than everyone else" attitude, and thats why the lack of life when on the field seems to be present.

 

[deeps]

That really did look like a green top to me.... However hindsight is a great thing isnt it.... If the deck actually did have a bit of zip and movement and punter chose to bat and the aussies got bowled out before tea, everyone would be saying "Punter it was a green top, why didnt u bat, u idiot". Cant have it both ways.....

it didn't look that much of a greentop.. Plus when you're missing your strike fast bowler, and your other strike fast bowler is out of form severely, it really puts the leading wicket taker in the world, to be your trump card. He should have realised that Warne was his biggest asset at this stage, and played to use that advantage.

Not only didn't he do that, he waited til the 34th over before throwing the ball to warne

 

[King_Ponting]

it didn't look that much of a greentop.. Plus when you're missing your strike fast bowler, and your other strike fast bowler is out of form severely, it really puts the leading wicket taker in the world, to be your trump card. He should have realised that Warne was his biggest asset at this stage, and played to use that advantage.

Not only didn't he do that, he waited til the 34th over before throwing the ball to warne

Which is precisely a reason to bowl. If indeed seam movement etc was present the out of form bowler could regain confidence and some form by taking wickets.... with aid from the pitch..

I dont know why he didnt bowl warnie earlier to be honest...... Something seems very weird about that decision in the last test, very strange indeed

 

[deeps]

Which is precisely a reason to bowl. If indeed seam movement etc was present the out of form bowler could regain confidence and some form by taking wickets.... with aid from the pitch..

I dont know why he didnt bowl warnie earlier to be honest...... Something seems very weird about that decision in the last test, very strange indeed

in a practice game, yes. in a test match with the ashes at stake, is not the time to try and regain the confidence of your bowlers. Again, if mcgrath was playing, then yes it was a good choice.

With strike fast bowler number 1 out injured
strike fast bolwer number 2 terribly out of form
fast bowlers 3 and 4 playing less than 5 tests among them in the past 12 months

The leading wicket-taker in the world, with 600 wickets to his name, who has a KNOWN edge over english batsman, who just so happens to be a spinner, it's obvious where the australians strengths were


I think ponting went in with a negative frame of mind. He chose to bowl, so as to not give the english quicks the advantage. He is worried that they might exploit the pitch and demolish the aussie batting line up. Negativity is something Steve Waugh would definately not have done. Having said that, Ponting may have had another reason, and its all just speculation from my part

 

[Sanz]

Like i said earlier, it takes an excellent performance to beat Waugh's aussies. Someone had to do something extra-ordinary.. A superhuman effort. In this case, it was Brian Lara. Warne was far from his peak, and was probably at his lowest ever in his entire illustrious career.

Yeah right !! Warnie was lowest during the india series under Mark Taylor not under Steve Waugh. And making a sweeping statement like 'It takes an excellent performance' doesn't work with me, they were a great team and obviously it will take great performances to beat them. And I dont know how it proves that he was a great captain.

So did Border before, and Taylor and many others. Yes Gilchrist's side won it in India recently, but as to how good the Indian side was playing this time around as compared to last time, makes the victory alot less hollow.

Border didn't tour India with the greatest team of decade and with bowlers like Mcgrath/warne/Gillespie etc. Ye Border didn't lose the test series in India, Waugh did. Not only that Waugh even failed to win the series against India in Australia without Mcgrath.

 

[tooextracool]

Waugh had a great bowling attack? He had Mcgrath, Warne, Gillespie.. then he had the in's and outs : Lee, Bichel, Macgill, not to mention countless others that came in and out of the side. Most of those bowlers are still available and playing good cricket

umm last i checked not too many sides have 3 world class bowlers amongst their ranks, let alone the fact that all 3 were at the peak of their powers and 2 were/are all time greats.

If you remember correctly, in the 2001 VB Series, the two other teams played in such a manner that australia would not make the finals. I believe New zealand it was, slowed down their game, so that they would not get the bonus point, which would allow australia into the finals. So really, if not for these tactics, they would have made the finals.

actually if australia hadnt screwed up so miserably and fallen to every one of NZs traps, they would not have been in that position ITFP.

Moreover, Waugh was a proven captain, who had one series that wasn't up to the high standard of the other series he'd captained. This is seen as a blemish on his career captaincy, but remember, there wasnt any TERRIBLE series under his tenure. Neither was there any losses to Bangladesh, which would have been simply unheard off under Waugh

no waughs side may not have lost to bangladesh, but they certainly managed to lose to both SL and india in the subcontinent, despite having a superior side in both series.

 

[tooextracool]

again, he inherited a decent side and made it into a great side. he did not inherit a great side.

If the Australian side was rated 8/10 under border, it only went up under waugh. say 9.5/10.. under punter, it's gone back to 8/10

Surely Waugh must've done something right to get the side up that little bit more

actually he inherited what was already the best side in the world, that maintained its standard, only for the rest of the teams around the world to get worse. to say that it went up to 9.5/10 under waugh, despite the fact that they couldnt win in india, SL or in the WI in 99 is ludicrous. and i for one find it especially strange that if australias side got worse under ponting how did they thrash SA in SA in the ODI series just after having a miserable time in the vb series, and how in the world did they go through the entire world cup undefeated.

 

[tooextracool]

Waugh did have problems in India, but to be fair, so did Taylor, and Australia hadn't won a series there for around thirty years. He certainly managed to take care of South Africa home and away during a period where they were definitely a big challenge for the number one spot.

actually to put taylors loss in india to the same level as waughs loss in india in 2001 is unfair. taylors bowling attack was seriously depleted, so much so that they toured india with kasparowicz as their main strike bowler. there was no glenn mcgrath, and there was no jason gillespie. instead there was paul wilson, adam dale, gavin robertson and paul reiffel.