Predictions for England winter tours in IND & PAK

[C_C]

dont make me laugh...I would pick Flintoff over Ganguly any day of the week these days.

I would too- because Freddie is an allrounder and a decent one at that.
But batting ? Sorry, doesnt compute. Flintoff may be good 'these days' when it comes to batting but i dont care much about form really. Class is still class. I am sure there were patches were david Gower did better than Viv did but Gower still isnt anywhere as good as Viv....

 

[C_C]

i cant see england losing to pakistan, but as far as india is concerned its very difficult to predict which indian team will show up, the team thats been rubbish in the last year or the team that was considerably better before that. i expect our bowlers much like in the recent series to be capable of taking 20 wickets(assuming fully fit), but im worried about our batting. tresco, vaughan, pietersen and possibly geraint jones all can play spin. but flintoff(struggles against spin at both ends), strauss and bell are all worrying. it will be a very tight series though.

Umm....none of the english batsmen can play spin or at the very least, are unproven. The one who could just retired.

 

[aussie]

Flintoff averages somethign like 10 or 12 in India and less than 40 in the subcontinent. For a top six batsman, its rather poor.
And Flintoff has looked mostly clueless agianst Warney so far this series.... ofcourse, Warney doesnt bowl from both ends and Flintoff's managed to get off a the strike a few times....but in India, you can pretty much garantee that it will be Kumble-Harbhajan tandem from both ends for session after session.

well the last time he was in India he was anywhere near has good has he is now againts any type of bowling, the fact is he is improving all the time & undoubtebly it will be difficult for him facing both Kumle-Harbahjan in tanden but we'll see.

I dont think Freddie has been clueless againts Warne this series since Lord's he has played him much better since.

 

[Swervy]

England are quite frankly a better team than either India or Pakistan. That is the fundamental basis on which to base a cricket team...talent. India have it but rarely convert it..Pakistan dont have as much of it .

Of course a series in India is always going to be tough for any opposition. People said Australia would struggle...in the end Australia outplayed India. I honestly think England have the tools to negate Indians spinners to some extent. Flintoff in fact can play the spinners pretty well, once in, thats the key for Flintoff...but India would have to get through KP as well, that would be an interesting battle

India will not have faced as hostile fast bowling attack at home since a waning Wasim and Waqar attack in the late 90's, when Pak won 2-1...before then you have to go back to the late 80's with Pakistan and WI...and India lost. When England last went out to India, England actually outplayed India for very large chunks of the series...England are better now, India I dont think are. Players like Simon Jones and Flintoff can do well in India with the ball..even Hoggard could be a factor like last time out there. Indias pace attack will no bother England in the slightest, the main danger man for me would be Harby, who is top class when on top form. I think this series will be a lot tougher for India than maybe a lot of people think.

With Pakistan, I just dont think they will be good enough

In ODI's, its a lottery really, none of the 3 teams is THAT good so who knows

 

[aussie]

India will not have faced as hostile fast bowling attack at home since a waning Wasim and Waqar attack in the late 90's, when Pak won 2-1...before then you have to go back to the late 80's with Pakistan and WI...and India lost. When England last went out to India, England actually outplayed India for very large chunks of the series...England are better now, India I dont think are. Players like Simon Jones and Flintoff can do well in India with the ball..even Hoggard could be a factor like last time out there.

Superb post Swervy i agree with everything you say especially these 2 points:

1. England did outplay India in the Ahmedabad & rain interupeted Bangalore test with a VERY understrenght side after the humbling we got in Mohali, a lot of people seem to forget that. England may are a MUCH better side now while India aren't playing that good cricket, but has TEC said we dont know which Indian side will turn up (the one that drew here & in AUS & won in PAK) or the one that has had a dismal lst 18 months...

2. Also the fact the pace & the ability to reverse swing that Harmy, Feddie & Jones posssess could be a HUGE factor in that series since pace has beaten India before at home.

 

[Swervy]

I would too- because Freddie is an allrounder and a decent one at that.
But batting ? Sorry, doesnt compute. Flintoff may be good 'these days' when it comes to batting but i dont care much about form really. Class is still class. I am sure there were patches were david Gower did better than Viv did but Gower still isnt anywhere as good as Viv....

Gangulys test career has been in decline longer tha it was ever in ascent...

Gangulys record in the last 3 years(is that long enough to say it isnt form???) isnt really much to worry about...I really cannot see him being that much of a feature in the series against top class fast/reverse swing bowling

Flintoffs batting isnt really form, its development, he has quite simply improved since the last time he played in India.

 

[Swervy]

Superb post Swervy i agree with everything you say especially these 2 points:

1. England did outplay India in the Ahmedabad & rain interupeted Bangalore test with a VERY understrenght side after the humbling we got in Mohali, a lot of people seem to forget that. England may are a MUCH better side now while India aren't playing that good cricket, but has TEC said we dont know which Indian side will turn up (the one that drew here & in AUS & won in PAK) or the one that has had a dismal lst 18 months...

2. Also the fact the pace & the ability to reverse swing that Harmy, Feddie & Jones posssess could be a HUGE factor in that series since pace has beaten India before at home.

just a point about that, that was a series in which Australia probably fielded its weakest bowling attack for maybe 15 years..Gillespie was not fit, McGrath was out etc etc....the England bowling attack in 2002 doesnt come close to this one..and Pakistans wasnt too good either...so it really isnt a case of which India turns up..it has always been about which opposition turns up.

I am going to be honest here, at the risk of disturbing some nicely preened feathers...India for the last 5 years have been the singly most overhyped team in world cricket.Put the pressure on, they wilt vs good teams, take the pressure off, and they do well. They have one truely great batsman now, and thats Dravid. Tendulkar has passed his sell by date (will always be a great player from the past, but isnt half the player he was)..and Sehwag has the potential, but I am yet to be convinced he can do it vs a consistantly high quality attack...Kumble and Harby aside, they have no other threats.

India rely on this myth that they are unbeatable at home, when in fact they arent, as proven by teams will high quality high pace attacks, its just that they stink the joint up away from home so much that the home games look amazing.

I think this England team are more suited to beating India in India than even Australia are

 

[C_C]

Gangulys test career has been in decline longer tha it was ever in ascent...

Gangulys record in the last 3 years(is that long enough to say it isnt form???) isnt really much to worry about...I really cannot see him being that much of a feature in the series against top class fast/reverse swing bowling

Flintoffs batting isnt really form, its development, he has quite simply improved since the last time he played in India.

Err...even in 'decline', Ganguly manages to accomplish more with the bat than Freddie does. Even this 'improved Flintoff' isnt much better than Ganguly at his lowest point.
And England isnt a topclass bowling unit when it comes to reverse swing. Reverse swing seems to be the new buzzword in the english dictionary now....suddenly everyone is topclass practicing it.

 

[C_C]

well the last time he was in India he was anywhere near has good has he is now againts any type of bowling, the fact is he is improving all the time & undoubtebly it will be difficult for him facing both Kumle-Harbahjan in tanden but we'll see.

I dont think Freddie has been clueless againts Warne this series since Lord's he has played him much better since.

If he plays Kumble and Harbhajan in India like he's played Warney so far, he will struggle to average more than 20 in that series. For he will have nowhere to hide and no one to take strike away from him so that he could go to the other end and face pacers.
Yer looking at topclass spin from both ends.

 

[Swervy]

Err...even in 'decline', Ganguly manages to accomplish more with the bat than Freddie does. Even this 'improved Flintoff' isnt much better than Ganguly at his lowest point. And England isnt a topclass bowling unit when it comes to reverse swing. Reverse swing seems to be the new buzzword in the english dictionary now....suddenly everyone is topclass practicing it.

1. well thats not true in the slightest

2. have you watched England play this series....Jones has always used reverse swing, but now he is bowling consistantly good lines with it...Flintoff uses it well as well...but its just the hositlity that England bowl with that India may struggle to cope with

 

[C_C]

1. well thats not true in the slightest

2. have you watched England play this series....Jones has always used reverse swing, but now he is bowling consistantly good lines with it...Flintoff uses it well as well...but its just the hositlity that England bowl with that India may struggle to cope with

1.Flintoff averages in his low 30s and Ganguly in 40s. Flintoff has bashed some mediocre bowling for a 40+ ave over the last 2 years,Ganguly at his peak averaged almost 50 against far better bowling lineups.
I dont think you wanna compare Flintoff the batsman with Ganguly the batsman.
A bit like comparing Botham the batsman with Ritchie Richardson the batsman.

2. I have watched ENG play this series and its nominal reverse swing AT BEST.... Jones has used it deftly at times but if you wanna see what reverse swing is all about, watch Waqar and Wasim scythe through England in the early 90s and make Hick their bunny.
All of the english bowlers are limited, who dont have what it takes at this point to bowl well in the india.
Harmison is predominantly pace and bounce - two things you dont get much in india.
Flintoff cant move it unless it is england or seaming wickets and in West Indies last year, he hardly moved it more than an inch. Jones might be a handful every now and then when he gets that nominal reverse swing going and Giles is...well..Giles.. Hoggard struggles to move the ball in non-seaming conditions.
If India bats to its callibre (that is, if Tendulkar comes back well from injury and Ganguly-Laxman discover some form), 400+ scores will be posted with alarming regularity against this english attack.

 

[Swervy]

1.Flintoff averages in his low 30s and Ganguly in 40s. Flintoff has bashed some mediocre bowling for a 40+ ave over the last 2 years,Ganguly at his peak averaged almost 50 against far better bowling lineups.
I dont think you wanna compare Flintoff the batsman with Ganguly the batsman.
A bit like comparing Botham the batsman with Ritchie Richardson the batsman.

2. I have watched ENG play this series and its nominal reverse swing AT BEST.... Jones has used it deftly at times but if you wanna see what reverse swing is all about, watch Waqar and Wasim scythe through England in the early 90s and make Hick their bunny.
All of the english bowlers are limited, who dont have what it takes at this point to bowl well in the india.
Harmison is predominantly pace and bounce - two things you dont get much in india.
Flintoff cant move it unless it is england or seaming wickets and in West Indies last year, he hardly moved it more than an inch. Jones might be a handful every now and then when he gets that nominal reverse swing going and Giles is...well..Giles.. Hoggard struggles to move the ball in non-seaming conditions.
If India bats to its callibre (that is, if Tendulkar comes back well from injury and Ganguly-Laxman discover some form), 400+ scores will be posted with alarming regularity against this english attack.

ok..well we will see

just on that about the reverse swing..I agree that Waqar and Wasim were bowling it incredibly back then..however I do still raise the odd eyebrow when thinking of how it was acheived!!!!!! (Bottletops at the ready!!!)

By the way, Hoggard struggles in non-SWINGING conditions.

 

[Swervy]

but CC you have to admit that England are the better team out of India and England!!!!

 

[Shane Warne]

thats a proven fact isn't it....

Yes.

 

[Anil]

India rely on this myth that they are unbeatable at home, when in fact they arent, as proven by teams will high quality high pace attacks, its just that they stink the joint up away from home so much that the home games look amazing.

I think this England team are more suited to beating India in India than even Australia are

what myth? they have lost two series at home in the past 15 years, one to s.a and one to aus, are myths usually supported by so many stats? they are not unbeatable, but they are certainly one of the toughest sides to beat at home along with s.l and aus....

 

[Anil]

I am going to be honest here, at the risk of disturbing some nicely preened feathers...India for the last 5 years have been the singly most overhyped team in world cricket.Put the pressure on, they wilt vs good teams, take the pressure off, and they do well. They have one truely great batsman now, and thats Dravid. Tendulkar has passed his sell by date (will always be a great player from the past, but isnt half the player he was)..and Sehwag has the potential, but I am yet to be convinced he can do it vs a consistantly high quality attack...Kumble and Harby aside, they have no other threats.

true to a great extent, regarding the players, i agree mostly with what you say, and also agree that tendulkar is past his best but he is still a world class batsman and i think he will prove it conclusively before he retires....and india is a hugely overhyped team but the hype has developed largely due to the umpteen home victories in recent years...something you seem to regard as myth....

 

[shankar]

just a point about that, that was a series in which Australia probably fielded its weakest bowling attack for maybe 15 years..Gillespie was not fit, McGrath was out etc etc....

If you hadnt noticed, McGrath didnt play the test England won and he obviously wasnt 100% in this test either. As for Gillespie he easily bowled much better in that series than now when his bowling is barely county standard.

Edit: I'm not trying to diminish the achievements of this England team who've played great cricket.

 

[Anil]

but CC you have to admit that England are the better team out of India and England!!!!

they are...but in indian conditions, that difference is reduced greatly....

 

[Anil]

If you hadnt noticed, McGrath didnt play the test England won and he obviously wasnt 100% in this test either. As for Gillespie he easily bowled much better in that series than now when his bowling is barely county standard.

Edit: I'm not trying to diminish the achievements of this England team who've played great cricket.

sshhh!! don't pr!ck his bubble...

 

[Swervy]

If you hadnt noticed, McGrath didnt play the test England won and he obviously wasnt 100% in this test either. As for Gillespie he easily bowled much better in that series than now when his bowling is barely county standard.

Edit: I'm not trying to diminish the achievements of this England team who've played great cricket.

If you hadnt noticed its more the England bowling that is putting England into great positions more than the batting....and if you had watched, you would have seen that mcGraths bowling wasnt really affected by his ankle..McGrath actually bowled pretty damned well, with just a slight faultering in line to some of the lefties

hardly any bowler is ever at 100% by the way