• Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

Giles or Tufnell, who do you think was a better slow left arm spin bowler?

C_C

International Captain
Social, while i disagree with Richard's ridiculous notions of analysis, i do agree with him that Murali is a wrist spinner.
He gets his spin from his wrists, unlike most conventional off spinners.

That is pretty evident from watching him bowl ( his wrists move a ridiculous amount) and has been confirmed by biomechanists.
 

social

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
C_C said:
Social, while i disagree with Richard's ridiculous notions of analysis, i do agree with him that Murali is a wrist spinner.
He gets his spin from his wrists, unlike most conventional off spinners.

That is pretty evident from watching him bowl ( his wrists move a ridiculous amount) and has been confirmed by biomechanists.
Murali's doosra is a version of a wrong 'un and is a wrist-spinner.

His off-spinner benefits from the flexion in his elbow and the way he contorts his wrist, but at the end of the day, the spin is imparted by his fingers. It's similar to flicking a table-tennis ball with a throwing action.
 

C_C

International Captain
His off-spinner benefits from the flexion in his elbow and the way he contorts his wrist, but at the end of the day, the spin is imparted by his fingers. It's similar to flicking a table-tennis ball with a throwing action.
Umm...his offspinner doesnt benifit from the flexion in his elbow any more than Shane Warne does for his or McGrath does for his deliveries.
That is biomechanically proven fact.
And yes, at the end of the day, the spin is imparted by the fingers- be a wrist-spinner or a finger-spinner.
but the difference is, a wrist spinner really 'rips' his wrist while a finger spinner doesnt do much with the wrist beyond what is necessary for flicking the fingers.
Murali is an oddity in offspinning circles, primarily because of his super-flexible wrists, which makes him a wrist-spinner and gives him his huge rip. That is the medical opinion on the matter stated by biomechanists.
 

Swervy

International Captain
C_C said:
Rich, you have NO WAY of knowing, from just watching the tv as to who puts more revs/sec on the ball and therefore your claim to 'he/she spins it as much as humanely possible' is absolutely ridiculous.
That is my scientific opinion on it and scientific analysis is my profression.
There, you've been officially rubber-stamped for proposing an idiotic theory.
part of my degree was regarding methods of measurement (Instrumentation I think its called..hehehe), and when we had the same discussion about a year ago, I explain why such an 'experiement' wouldnt work....he dismissed it completely.(I seem to remember Richard actually quoting specific bowlers with specific rev/sec some thing like Giles 86 revs/sec or something...with no regard for the errors that are involved)

I hope you get different results CC :D
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
C_C said:
Umm...his offspinner doesnt benifit from the flexion in his elbow any more than Shane Warne does for his or McGrath does for his deliveries.
That is biomechanically proven fact.
No, what is proven is that they're over the degrees limit.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
Now I'm coming at this as a total layman (my degree is in Philosophy & Sociology, so zero scientific background for me to draw on!!), but 86 revs a sec sounds way too high. That's over 5000 per minute! Some car engines don't manage that!!

Can a human hand really do that?!? I'm not being facetious here, I'm genuinely curious. :)
 

C_C

International Captain
I dont think the human hand can do that to a cricket-ball. But revs/second is essentially determined by three factors : Mass of the object ( therefore, how much force needs to be applied to initiate rotational motion- Moments of inertia crap basically) , Force applied and length of the Torque-arm.

Think of it in moments of inertia, where rotational energy is related to Mass x length of the object.
Put simply, you can flip a hammer and cause it to rotate far more # of times if you hold it by the base of the handle rather than near the hammer-head, since most of the mass is concentrated on the big iron hammerhead and by holding it near the base of the handle, you are increasing the distance from the center of mass.

When you are revving something ( immagine a sewing machine wheel), you get more rotation if you keep your hand in contact with the wheel longer ( ie, you start applying the force from the base of your wrist and keep your entire hand in contact, all the way to the tip of your fingers).

Same principle applies here really.
If you can create a large enough contact force length ( since we cannot just increase the length of our palm by will, this means the size of the object in concnern should be smaller), we can put a lotta revs on it.

To illustrate, imagine you got a cricket ball, a ping-pong ball, a basketball and a soccer ball, each with a hole in the center ( so that you can mount it on some sort of an axle and base). Now, you apply the same force ( this is a bit ambigous to do with your hand and unless you are a robotics guru, you just have to do multiple trials with hand to get some consistency in data) on each of the balls and measure the revs/sec.
You'll notice that the basketball spins the slowest (since its got the highest moment of inertia, due to its largest mass and size) and the ping pong ball spins the fastest.

It is rather easy to measure revs/sec in laboratory under this kind of a construct ( where you drill a hole and mount it on an axle), since all you need to do is attach a tiny piece of duct-tape sticking out from the balls, position a photogate just high enough so that only the duct-tape stub crosses the photo-gate sensors, hook it up to a good ol multipurpose counter machine and spin away.
I can actually do this in the lab ( though i might have some creative bullsh*tting to do if i wanna hijack a labstation for a hour or two for no apparent coursework concern :p :p ) and get back with the numbers of revs *I* can impart on the ball - i am 5'7 and i can bench around 180 pounds, so i would like to think that the force generated by my hand wouldnt be absurdly low or high.

I have done some experiments long ago with this sort of measuring technique ( though it had nothing to do with cricket- more like a stupid moments of inertia lab in 1st year) and i would hazard a calculated guess - the revs/sec on a cricket-ball wouldnt be more than 20-30 revs/sec, unless you are talking about Shaquille O'Neil giving it an allmighty rip.
But yeah, if you are talking a sufficiently small object ( lets say a really small ball-bearing) , you can give it a pertty high rev/s and i cant think of a reason why you cant spin something 100s or 1000s or revs/s if it is sufficiently small and lightweight....I mean if you think about it, you snap your fingers and the torque you are imparting on the air molecules is probably making the nearby molecules spin at millions of revs/s, if not more......
 
Last edited:

Steulen

International Regular
This could actually be a nice one to e-mail to the boradcasters during the edgbaston Test. With their high-speed camera's (1000 frames/sec I believe) they should be able to find out how many revs/sec Shane Warne manages 'in vivo'.

IMHO, 86 revs/sec is absurd and just another wild throw from cow corner.
 

C_C

International Captain
All i gotto say to that 'deduction' is that gimme some of whatever Rich is smoking.
:p :p
 

Swervy

International Captain
C_C said:
All i gotto say to that 'deduction' is that gimme some of whatever Rich is smoking.
:p :p
if you get hold of any of that stuff he is smoking, just be careful..side effects include thickening of skin, head assumes almost pig like qualities,and delusions of ones own opinion being far superior to everyone elses, and lack of ability to actually recognise ones own faults.

Now that must be some major bubonic chronic :D
 

Steulen

International Regular
C_C said:
All i gotto say to that 'deduction' is that gimme some of whatever Rich is smoking.
:p :p
That guy is so far out he's in danger of banging his head against that new planet thingie.

Funny that he's seeing 100Hz movements on a 25Hz or 75Hz film...clearly he's never heard of the "sampling freuqency must exceed twice the signal frequency" rule :book:
 

C_C

International Captain
Steulen said:
That guy is so far out he's in danger of banging his head against that new planet thingie.

Funny that he's seeing 100Hz movements on a 25Hz or 75Hz film...clearly he's never heard of the "sampling freuqency must exceed twice the signal frequency" rule :book:

Psssssssssssssh!!
Is that all ?
I once saw a living,breathing, highly talkative gnome once and even held a conversation with it....ofcourse i had like 8 hits of magic shrooms that night
:p :p

Swervy: LOL!! on second thoughts..............i pass :p
 

Swervy

International Captain
C_C said:
Psssssssssssssh!!
Is that all ?
I once saw a living,breathing, highly talkative gnome once and even held a conversation with it....ofcourse i had like 8 hits of magic shrooms that night :p :p

Swervy: LOL!! on second thoughts..............i pass :p
I once hasd a similar experience with 'shrooms, when I was in possession of a miniture pink elephant who I introduced to everyone at the party, it fit snuggly in the palm of my hand, ...the strangest bit was that everyone else saw him as well :D

I know this is crazily off topic but my friend once had to use the public toliets in a park..unfortunately under the influence of aforementioned fungus...he quickly left those toilets when,whilst emptying his bladder, he looked up and saw a small black box hovering in the air. The black box identified itself a the motivation behind child abuse. I actually watched my friend leave the toilet block, and as he walked towards me at the other side of the park, he was visibly staggering,so scared that he was.


now back to the cricket...... :D
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
marc71178 said:
No, because you're passing off a faulty observation as meaningful - which is par for the course.
You are putting in your customary liner as per every single time.
Whatever other cirumstances are (not) present that is the way it is.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
C_C said:
No he doesnt. In the last tour of India, Harbhajan was consistently spinning it more than Giles
No, he wasn't - he and Giles (and Kumble too) were both effective at Motera due to the fact that they turned it then, and none of the three were effective at Bangalore because it wasn't turning (Sarandeep was effective, but because of poor strokes not the turning ball)
Actually he did lose a bit of spin but not significantly.
Gibb's demise was due to him losing his loop and flight.
And he'd not have gone so badly downhill if he'd still turned the ball, because turn can be effective without loop and flight.
Nobody is talking about freakish differences but the fact remains that the hand of a 6 feet dude is considerably larger than the hand of a 5 and half foot dude and thus the ball has more contact surface.
Err, no, height doesn't neccessarily come into it, it's about build.
And obviously there are small differences, but any difference that would influence how much the ball can be spun with the fingers would be of freakish proportions (eg the fitting of a hand into a palm).
You dont have a clue about it really. And dont try to debate that, i can get my uncle to say that in medical parlayance for you.
D'you mean parlance?
It'd be interesting to see exactly what your Uncle (if he is even as you say he is) would say exactly on the matter - of course we'll never know for certain.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
C_C said:
No, we dont have a rough idea. If we did, we would consider McGrath's action to be suspect as well, considering that he flexes it around the same level as Akhtar does.

If you take even the most elementary linear algebra, you would realise that mapping a 3 dimensional space into 2-dimentional space produces illusions and distortions.
True for any 'n th dimentional variable mapped into a (n-1) dimension'.
Obviously, which is why nothing but very basic explanations can be carried-out using 2D pictures.
The reasons for the flexation of Akhtar and McGrath are, of course, totally different.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
social said:
So your evidence for saying that it's impossible for a finger-spinner to spin the ball more than Giles is based upon his performances in helpful conditions.

Funny how he hardly gets the ball off the straight and narrow in "normal" circumstances.
Nor does any other fingerspinner.
As for Murali, if I'm not mistaken, this theory of yours was first suggested asa defence against suggestions of him chucking. It was as much nonsense then as it is today.

You might watch a lot of cricket but your interpretation would not suggest that you have a clue as to what is going on
What the hell has him being a wristspinner got to do with the fact he doesn't chuck?
The only reason he seems to the unwary eye to chuck has to do with the fact that his elbow doesn't straighten fully.
His spin comes from his wrists, and anyone who thinks otherwise is a dunce of the highest order.
 

Top