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Thread: He who dares, wins.

  1. #1
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    He who dares, wins.

    Difficult to compare eras, but which of these teams from the Windies dominant period and the recent Aussies is the strongest 11?

    West Indies
    1..Gordon Greenidge
    2..Desmond Hayes
    3..Viv Richards
    4..Richie Richardson
    5..Clive Lloyd
    6..Alvin Kallicharran
    7..Jeff Dujon
    8..Malcolm Marshall
    9..Michael Holding
    10.Andy roberts
    11.Joel Garner

    Australia
    1..Mark Taylor
    2..Matthew Hayden
    3..Mark Waugh
    4..Ricky Ponting
    5..Steve Waugh
    6..Damien Martyn
    7..Adam Gilchrist
    8..Shane Warne
    9..Jason Gillespie
    10.Brett Lee
    11.Glen McGrath

  2. #2
    Hall of Fame Member social's Avatar
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    My initial inclination was towards the Windies because of their magnificent pacemen.

    However, their batsmen generally struggled against the ball turning away from them and they never faced anyone remotely in the class of Warne. Prior to his operations, he was the best bowler ever and by some distance.

    Throw in McGrath, Gilchrist and Steve Waugh (3 all-time greats) and the issue becomes murkier.

    With variations to your bating order (Peak Ponting at 3, Langer) I'd back Aus.

  3. #3
    Global Moderator vic_orthdox's Avatar
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    I'd take the Windies, especially after watching the trouble that Flintoff and Harmison (especially) have given Australia, with them having the pressure let down at the other end by Giles, Jones and Hoggard (and others in the ODIs).

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    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    The South Africans of 1969\70 and the Australians of 1948 were better than both IMO.
    But out of those 2 I'd say West Indies were better.
    And replace Warne with MacGill and it's a no-contest - WI would hammer them every time. Replace Marshall (WI's best bowler) with the next-best and it'd not make anywhere near so big a difference.
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  5. #5
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    Yes windies probably although the rule on bouncers might make it a little different

  6. #6
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    I doubt it.
    The West Indian bowlers were better when they were pounding it in less and using the movement all were capable of extracting more.
    It'd probably just make them even more effective.

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    International Captain Swervy's Avatar
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    The best recent Australian team at a push slightly better than the best WI team for me
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    International Captain Swervy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lillian Thomson
    Difficult to compare eras, but which of these teams from the Windies dominant period and the recent Aussies is the strongest 11?

    West Indies
    1..Gordon Greenidge
    2..Desmond Hayes
    3..Viv Richards
    4..Richie Richardson
    5..Clive Lloyd
    6..Alvin Kallicharran
    7..Jeff Dujon
    8..Malcolm Marshall
    9..Michael Holding
    10.Andy roberts
    11.Joel Garner

    Australia
    1..Mark Taylor
    2..Matthew Hayden
    3..Mark Waugh
    4..Ricky Ponting
    5..Steve Waugh
    6..Damien Martyn
    7..Adam Gilchrist
    8..Shane Warne
    9..Jason Gillespie
    10.Brett Lee
    11.Glen McGrath
    I take it you are selecting the best players of an era for each team and not the best team to have played together..coz from memory Kalli didnt play with Dujon or Richardson..and when Richardson was playing Lloyd was past his best,as was Roberts and Richards..and when Kalli was playing Marshall wasnt that good a bowler (he was neither that fast nor have the ability to move the ball about ).

    For me the best WI team was at the very start of the 80's,

  9. #9
    International Regular King_Ponting's Avatar
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    The aussie team but only just. Would love to watch that match!!!!!

  10. #10
    Global Moderator vic_orthdox's Avatar
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    I think that a few of the Windies players are now past their prime.

  11. #11
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swervy
    I take it you are selecting the best players of an era for each team and not the best team to have played together..coz from memory Kalli didnt play with Dujon or Richardson..and when Richardson was playing Lloyd was past his best,as was Roberts and Richards..and when Kalli was playing Marshall wasnt that good a bowler (he was neither that fast nor have the ability to move the ball about ).

    For me the best WI team was at the very start of the 80's,
    Not to mention that Taylor and Hayden only opened in the early 90s, never in the golden period of the 1999-2001 time - though it goes without saying that Taylor-Slater was a better combo than Slater-Hayden.
    Not to mention that Ponting only moved up to three, with Langer dropped, long after Taylor had retired. Langer, of course, was soon recalled in a different position.
    For the Australians you could probably pick several teams...
    Taylor
    Slater
    Langer
    M Waugh
    S Waugh
    Lehmann
    Healey
    Warne
    Someone
    Fleming \ Gillespie
    McGrath
    Which wasn't, quite, as good as...
    Slater
    Hayden
    Langer
    M Waugh
    S Waugh
    Ponting
    Gilchrist
    Warne
    B Lee
    Gillespie
    McGrath
    And of course there have been several others around the time; no place can be found for the strongest attack (Warne, Kasprowicz, Gillespie, McGrath) because of the fact that it was after Stephen Waugh's time; nor can place be found for fine batsmen such as Martyn (first reserve amongst the above side) amongst the best sides... Martyn's best side was probably...
    Langer
    Hayden
    Ponting
    Martyn
    S Waugh
    Lehmann
    Gilchrist
    Warne
    Bichel
    Gillespie
    McGrath
    and obviously Bichel's presence compromises almost as much as Lee's; this side, too, played together for only 2 very brief Tests.
    Great teams are rarely a straightforward matter, West Indies of late '70s and early '80s no exception.
    Wasn't Richardson the succession to Kallicherran? (And nowhere near as good IMO)
    Wasn't the best side one that didn't even contain Dujon (a far superior performer to Murray)? And didn't the best side of all (with Marshall's inclusion an absolute must) have no Kallicherran?
    Fact is, most West Indies sides between 1976 and 1984 could have beaten almost anyone from history.

  12. #12
    Hall of Fame Member FaaipDeOiad's Avatar
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    The best Windies team for mine was the very early 80s, while the best Australian team was probably around the 2001/02 period when Ponting had moved up to three and Langer and Hayden were opening. By then of course, Warne was past his prime somewhat, but he's still more than capable. Face those two teams off against one another (West Indies bowling attack would probably be Roberts/Holding/Garner/Croft) and I think Australia are marginally better. West Indies bowling is perhaps superior on the whole, but Australia's batting is significantly more reliable.

    The wicket also makes a difference of course. It would be one hell of a cricket match, either way.
    It's cold on the outside they say
    But the cold leaves you clear while the heat leaves a haze

  13. #13
    International Coach archie mac's Avatar
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    As with most things Cricket the wicket, would go a long way to deciding this match up. If they played the Perth Pitch circa 1987-1994 I would back the Windies. SCG from the same time frame and Warne would be the Aussie trump. The Windies had trouble with Bobby Holand, on the SCG and the Aussies had trouble with all the Windies pace men on the WACA. This is my 5 Test series from that period featuring these two sides.

    1st Test Brisbane WI win by 5 W
    2nd Test Perth WI win by an inns and 120 runs
    3rd Test Adelaide Draw
    4th Test Melbourne Not sure last day WI need 131 with 5 wickets in hand
    5th Test Sydney Aust win by an inns and 85 runs.

  14. #14
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FaaipDeOiad
    The best Windies team for mine was the very early 80s, while the best Australian team was probably around the 2001/02 period when Ponting had moved up to three and Langer and Hayden were opening.
    With Mark Waugh's being past it and Stephen being past his best?
    I'd prefer the side of 1999\2000, even if it did have Hayden.
    Never know - that side might even have had a good Brett Lee.

  15. #15
    Hall of Fame Member FaaipDeOiad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard
    With Mark Waugh's being past it and Stephen being past his best?
    I'd prefer the side of 1999\2000, even if it did have Hayden.
    Never know - that side might even have had a good Brett Lee.
    The 1999 side wasn't close to as good. It didn't have the phenomenally successful Langer/Hayden opening pair, Ponting was batting at 6 where he was never as successful as he is now, Slater's form at the time was at least as worrying as Mark Waugh's was in 2001/02, and the addition of a class player like Damien Martyn to the batting lineup only strengthened it further. Not to mention, the McGrath/Gillespie/Lee/Warne attack was significantly superior to one with guys like Bichel and a past-it Fleming.

    Anyway, we're speaking entirely hypothetically about the lineups, so I don't think form really comes into it unless you're picking a team from a single series. Whether or not Steve and Mark were scoring runs in any series around that time you choose to pick, they are still part of the best Australian team of the era.

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