He who dares, wins.

[Lillian Thomson]

Difficult to compare eras, but which of these teams from the Windies dominant period and the recent Aussies is the strongest 11?

West Indies
1..Gordon Greenidge
2..Desmond Hayes
3..Viv Richards
4..Richie Richardson
5..Clive Lloyd
6..Alvin Kallicharran
7..Jeff Dujon
8..Malcolm Marshall
9..Michael Holding
10.Andy roberts
11.Joel Garner

Australia
1..Mark Taylor
2..Matthew Hayden
3..Mark Waugh
4..Ricky Ponting
5..Steve Waugh
6..Damien Martyn
7..Adam Gilchrist
8..Shane Warne
9..Jason Gillespie
10.Brett Lee
11.Glen McGrath

 

[social]

My initial inclination was towards the Windies because of their magnificent pacemen.

However, their batsmen generally struggled against the ball turning away from them and they never faced anyone remotely in the class of Warne. Prior to his operations, he was the best bowler ever and by some distance.

Throw in McGrath, Gilchrist and Steve Waugh (3 all-time greats) and the issue becomes murkier.

With variations to your bating order (Peak Ponting at 3, Langer) I'd back Aus.

 

[vic_orthdox]

I'd take the Windies, especially after watching the trouble that Flintoff and Harmison (especially) have given Australia, with them having the pressure let down at the other end by Giles, Jones and Hoggard (and others in the ODIs).

 

[Richard]

The South Africans of 1969\70 and the Australians of 1948 were better than both IMO.
But out of those 2 I'd say West Indies were better.
And replace Warne with MacGill and it's a no-contest - WI would hammer them every time. Replace Marshall (WI's best bowler) with the next-best and it'd not make anywhere near so big a difference.

 

[kendall]

Yes windies probably although the rule on bouncers might make it a little different

 

[Richard]

I doubt it.
The West Indian bowlers were better when they were pounding it in less and using the movement all were capable of extracting more.
It'd probably just make them even more effective.

 

[Swervy]

The best recent Australian team at a push slightly better than the best WI team for me

 

[Swervy]

Difficult to compare eras, but which of these teams from the Windies dominant period and the recent Aussies is the strongest 11?

West Indies
1..Gordon Greenidge
2..Desmond Hayes
3..Viv Richards
4..Richie Richardson
5..Clive Lloyd
6..Alvin Kallicharran
7..Jeff Dujon
8..Malcolm Marshall
9..Michael Holding
10.Andy roberts
11.Joel Garner

Australia
1..Mark Taylor
2..Matthew Hayden
3..Mark Waugh
4..Ricky Ponting
5..Steve Waugh
6..Damien Martyn
7..Adam Gilchrist
8..Shane Warne
9..Jason Gillespie
10.Brett Lee
11.Glen McGrath

I take it you are selecting the best players of an era for each team and not the best team to have played together..coz from memory Kalli didnt play with Dujon or Richardson..and when Richardson was playing Lloyd was past his best,as was Roberts and Richards..and when Kalli was playing Marshall wasnt that good a bowler (he was neither that fast nor have the ability to move the ball about ).

For me the best WI team was at the very start of the 80's,

 

[King_Ponting]

The aussie team but only just. Would love to watch that match!!!!!

 

[vic_orthdox]

I think that a few of the Windies players are now past their prime.

 

[Richard]

I take it you are selecting the best players of an era for each team and not the best team to have played together..coz from memory Kalli didnt play with Dujon or Richardson..and when Richardson was playing Lloyd was past his best,as was Roberts and Richards..and when Kalli was playing Marshall wasnt that good a bowler (he was neither that fast nor have the ability to move the ball about ).

For me the best WI team was at the very start of the 80's,

Not to mention that Taylor and Hayden only opened in the early 90s, never in the golden period of the 1999-2001 time - though it goes without saying that Taylor-Slater was a better combo than Slater-Hayden.
Not to mention that Ponting only moved up to three, with Langer dropped, long after Taylor had retired. Langer, of course, was soon recalled in a different position.
For the Australians you could probably pick several teams...
Taylor
Slater
Langer
M Waugh
S Waugh
Lehmann
Healey
Warne
Someone
Fleming \ Gillespie
McGrath
Which wasn't, quite, as good as...
Slater
Hayden
Langer
M Waugh
S Waugh
Ponting
Gilchrist
Warne
B Lee
Gillespie
McGrath
And of course there have been several others around the time; no place can be found for the strongest attack (Warne, Kasprowicz, Gillespie, McGrath) because of the fact that it was after Stephen Waugh's time; nor can place be found for fine batsmen such as Martyn (first reserve amongst the above side) amongst the best sides... Martyn's best side was probably...
Langer
Hayden
Ponting
Martyn
S Waugh
Lehmann
Gilchrist
Warne
Bichel
Gillespie
McGrath
and obviously Bichel's presence compromises almost as much as Lee's; this side, too, played together for only 2 very brief Tests.
Great teams are rarely a straightforward matter, West Indies of late '70s and early '80s no exception.
Wasn't Richardson the succession to Kallicherran? (And nowhere near as good IMO)
Wasn't the best side one that didn't even contain Dujon (a far superior performer to Murray)? And didn't the best side of all (with Marshall's inclusion an absolute must) have no Kallicherran?
Fact is, most West Indies sides between 1976 and 1984 could have beaten almost anyone from history.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

The best Windies team for mine was the very early 80s, while the best Australian team was probably around the 2001/02 period when Ponting had moved up to three and Langer and Hayden were opening. By then of course, Warne was past his prime somewhat, but he's still more than capable. Face those two teams off against one another (West Indies bowling attack would probably be Roberts/Holding/Garner/Croft) and I think Australia are marginally better. West Indies bowling is perhaps superior on the whole, but Australia's batting is significantly more reliable.

The wicket also makes a difference of course. It would be one hell of a cricket match, either way.

 

[archie mac]

As with most things Cricket the wicket, would go a long way to deciding this match up. If they played the Perth Pitch circa 1987-1994 I would back the Windies. SCG from the same time frame and Warne would be the Aussie trump. The Windies had trouble with Bobby Holand, on the SCG and the Aussies had trouble with all the Windies pace men on the WACA. This is my 5 Test series from that period featuring these two sides.

1st Test Brisbane WI win by 5 W
2nd Test Perth WI win by an inns and 120 runs
3rd Test Adelaide Draw
4th Test Melbourne Not sure last day WI need 131 with 5 wickets in hand
5th Test Sydney Aust win by an inns and 85 runs.

 

[Richard]

The best Windies team for mine was the very early 80s, while the best Australian team was probably around the 2001/02 period when Ponting had moved up to three and Langer and Hayden were opening.

With Mark Waugh's being past it and Stephen being past his best?
I'd prefer the side of 1999\2000, even if it did have Hayden.
Never know - that side might even have had a good Brett Lee.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

With Mark Waugh's being past it and Stephen being past his best?
I'd prefer the side of 1999\2000, even if it did have Hayden.
Never know - that side might even have had a good Brett Lee.

The 1999 side wasn't close to as good. It didn't have the phenomenally successful Langer/Hayden opening pair, Ponting was batting at 6 where he was never as successful as he is now, Slater's form at the time was at least as worrying as Mark Waugh's was in 2001/02, and the addition of a class player like Damien Martyn to the batting lineup only strengthened it further. Not to mention, the McGrath/Gillespie/Lee/Warne attack was significantly superior to one with guys like Bichel and a past-it Fleming.

Anyway, we're speaking entirely hypothetically about the lineups, so I don't think form really comes into it unless you're picking a team from a single series. Whether or not Steve and Mark were scoring runs in any series around that time you choose to pick, they are still part of the best Australian team of the era.

 

[C_C]

The windies clinches it in a canter.

For one, saying that there was no one remotely as good as Warne is a huge disservice.
Chandrasekhar was top class and while i rate Warne ahead of him, its not by a huge margin.
Second, of the players mentioned in the Windies lineup, Haynes, Lloyd and Kalli were excellent players of spin, with Kalli being one of the allitme greats against spin. Viv was excellent against spin too- you dont go around smashing deadley Derek or Chandra without being proficient against spin.
The west indies had probably the best ever lineup to take a field simultaneously ( replace Marshall with Croft and Richardson with Rowe and you got the team that actually took the field) and their pace battery is simply too strong.
Punter, Hayden,Taylor etc. would probably struggle to average 30 in a series versus them with Gilly not being much better...the only ones i can see handling it is Martyn and Langer to an extent.....
Punter struggled the few times he played against pace bowlers who pitch it short off good length and get it to cut in ( Ambrose and Walsh are the perfect example from the 90s) and if hayden struggles against Akhtar, i think its reasonable to say that he would be mincemeat to one certain Mikey Holding.
The difference in batting proficiency is not much but the advantage is with Australia( Gilly factor). But difference in the bowling department is most definately in the windies' corner.
Each and every windies bowler from that list is comparable to McGrath ( with probably the exception of Roberts, who is a wee bit off) but McGrath and Warne apart, no aussie bowler since Lillee has a snowball's chance in hell to crack that lineup..... bowlers of Dizzy's callibre or higher ( Daniel, Clarke, Croft, etc.) struggled to get a game.
Apart from Sunil Gavaskar,Jimmy Amarnath,Gooch and Alan Border, nobody handled the WI pace quartet with even remote proficiency...that underscores how bloody good they were.
That team also was as good as the aussie team mentioned in catching and fielding, if not better....Lloyd was the inheritor of Bland's mantle of 'best cover/point fielder ever' till Rhodes came along, Dujon was a marvellous catcher to pace bowling, the likes of Viv, Greenidge,Richardson were as good as the best aussie catching unit since 1990 and the outfielding of Holding/Roberts/Garner/Marshall was quiete good. ofcourse, in a real match scenario with substitute fielders taking the field, the WI would be distinctly in command as far as fielding came, with players like Gus Logie and Roger Harper comming in to substitute....those two may not have been Jonty Rhodes category but easily as good as any fielder apart from Rhodes from 1990 onwards.

In a 5 match series, i would put my bucks on a 3-1 WI win either way.

 

[Scallywag]

Punter, Hayden,Taylor etc. would probably struggle to average 30 in a series versus them with Gilly not being much better...the only ones i can see handling it is Martyn and Langer to an extent.....

You convienently forget that Gillespie and McGrath would be so much more effective on pitches from the early 90's

 

[C_C]

You convienently forget that Gillespie and McGrath would be so much more effective on pitches from the early 90's

Ummm no.
McGrath isnt very pitch dependent....his performance doesnt suffer much when he plays on pitches not friendly to pace bowling......and his performance doesnt improve much on pitches that favour pace bowling.
Pitches in the 80s/early 90s were like WACA or Barbados pre-2001(when it was relaid). And McGrath's figures on these kinda pitches arnt too different from his otherwise figures.
Which isnt surprising really, since McGrath doesnt rely on seam movement or bounce as much as he relies on accuracy and subtle variations.......the latter two arnt pitch-dependent.

Gillespie i can see improving on the 80s/early 90s pitches but like i said, he isnt a patch on Roberts-Garner-Marshall-Croft-Holding..... If Gillespie was a 20-something player in WI in the late 70s/80s, he would be carrying drinks.

Warne would be the key but not as big a key as some aussies immagine.....WI players of the late 70s/80s wernt slouches against spin bowling.......quoting Border's 10-fer is no different than quoting Clarke's 6-fer.....and by the time Hirwani came around, most of the good players of spin had either retired or were approaching their late 30s....
Players like Kalli i would back against Warne or Murali on a minefield in the same way i would back Sidhu/Miandad/Tendulkar/Lara/Azhar/Gavaskar against spin.
Players like Lloyd and Haynes were extremely proficient against spin and Viv was no slouch...like i said, you dont go whacking deadly Derek on a sticky wicket or Chandrasekhar/Bedi to all corners of the ballpark if you are merely 'average' agianst spin bowling....true, Warne is a better spinner than them but its not like we are comparing Warne with Hauritz or Paul Adams here.......those were extremely good/great bowlers.

If you can get hold of the videos, watch Holding almost decapitate Close or Holding making mincemeat outta Boycott or Garner making Border look like a cat on hot tin roof.
Watch Marshall make kabobs outta Vengsarkar or Croft turning Zaheer Abass into pudding.
'Pace like fire' is simply unplayable.....
The only way you can beat WI is if you can assemble a 'bouncers, rib ticklers,yorkers par supreme' bowling crew......something that this AUS team doesnt have and something even an alltime OZ team would barely match(and its a big if).

 

[C_C]

I think if you are trying to put together a 'best team of the respective dominant eras', my team would look like this:

WI ( 1975-1992):

G.Greenidge
D.Haynes
R.Richardson
IVA. Richards
A.Kallicharan
C.Lloyd
J.Dujon
M.Marshall
C.Ambrose
J.Garner
M.Holding

AUS ( 1995-current):

M.Hayden
J. Langer
R.Ponting
M.Waugh
D.Martyn
S.Waugh
A.Gillchrist
S.Warne
J.Gillespie
D.Fleming
G.McGrath

 

[Scallywag]

Ummm no.
McGrath isnt very pitch dependent....his performance doesnt suffer much when he plays on pitches not friendly to pace bowling......and his performance doesnt improve much on pitches that favour pace bowling.
Pitches in the 80s/early 90s were like WACA or Barbados pre-2001(when it was relaid). And McGrath's figures on these kinda pitches arnt too different from his otherwise figures.
Which isnt surprising really, since McGrath doesnt rely on seam movement or bounce as much as he relies on accuracy and subtle variations.......the latter two arnt pitch-dependent.

Gillespie i can see improving on the 80s/early 90s pitches but like i said, he isnt a patch on Roberts-Garner-Marshall-Croft-Holding..... If Gillespie was a 20-something player in WI in the late 70s/80s, he would be carrying drinks.

Warne would be the key but not as big a key as some aussies immagine.....WI players of the late 70s/80s wernt slouches against spin bowling.......quoting Border's 10-fer is no different than quoting Clarke's 6-fer.....and by the time Hirwani came around, most of the good players of spin had either retired or were approaching their late 30s....
Players like Kalli i would back against Warne or Murali on a minefield in the same way i would back Sidhu/Miandad/Tendulkar/Lara/Azhar/Gavaskar against spin.
Players like Lloyd and Haynes were extremely proficient against spin and Viv was no slouch...like i said, you dont go whacking deadly Derek on a sticky wicket or Chandrasekhar/Bedi to all corners of the ballpark if you are merely 'average' agianst spin bowling....true, Warne is a better spinner than them but its not like we are comparing Warne with Hauritz or Paul Adams here.......those were extremely good/great bowlers.

If you can get hold of the videos, watch Holding almost decapitate Close or Holding making mincemeat outta Boycott or Garner making Border look like a cat on hot tin roof.
Watch Marshall make kabobs outta Vengsarkar or Croft turning Zaheer Abass into pudding.
'Pace like fire' is simply unplayable.....
The only way you can beat WI is if you can assemble a 'bouncers, rib ticklers,yorkers par supreme' bowling crew......something that this AUS team doesnt have and something even an alltime OZ team would barely match(and its a big if).

Trouble with you C_C is you overlook things that dont suit your arguement.

If as you say the WI bowlers were so much better than all the other bowlers why dont their figures show it.

If as you say the WI batsmen were so good why didnt they have better averages than other batsmen of their era (and I mean huge differences ) because they never had to face the WI quartet like how people say that Pontings average is higher because he doesnt face the Australian bowlers. How come Border can average the same as Richards while as you say facing a much stronger bowling attack which then you say makes Richards the better batsman.