"The almighty Flintoff" and "the below test standard Lee"

[aussie]

and i still think that putting lee down as being an excellent test match bowler is a bit premature, because 1 test match rarely proves much.

He has improved since the last time I saw him bowl in a test. It will be interesting to see him bowl on a flat deck, but it looks like we may not see that until the Oval, if indeed that wicket plays as history suggest it will.

na we could see one at old trafford, didn't u see hear about the high scoring boring draw with Lancashire & Essex???.

 

[Pratters]

Look - we can't be certain that Lee won't suddenly and miraculously develop new abilities he's never shown remotest signs of.
Not very likely, I know, but I always like to cut myself as much slack as I possibly can.

So if he performs poorly, your beliefs on him are right but if he performs well in the future, it is because of miraclously developed abilities. We will never concede then that we may have wrong perceptions then.

 

[Richard]

He has improved since the last time I saw him bowl in a test. It will be interesting to see him bowl on a flat deck, but it looks like we may not see that until the Oval, if indeed that wicket plays as history suggest it will.

We might quite possibly get non-seam-friendly pitches in all of the next 4 Tests. I'd guess Old Trafford might well turn and Edgbaston might possibly turn; Trent Bridge is anyone's guess. The Oval, of course, is likely to as usual offer nothing to any bowler.

 

[Richard]

na we could see one at old trafford, didn't u see hear about the high scoring boring draw with Lancashire & Essex???.

I'd think the Old Trafford pitch might turn at least - though yes it's more likely to be a flattie than one like Lord's.

 

[Richard]

So if he performs poorly, your beliefs on him are right but if he performs well in the future, it is because of miraclously developed abilities. We will never concede then that we may have wrong perceptions then.

One thing is for certain - I was right in saying he was rubbish before now.
And I'd guess I'm probably right in saying that I don't think he's any better now.
Certainly I am never going to say I was wrong to say Lee was rubbish when he was; I will, of course, say I was wrong to believe he wasn't going to get any better if he does so.

 

[Swervy]

One thing is for certain - I was right in saying he was rubbish before now.
And I'd guess I'm probably right in saying that I don't think he's any better now.
Certainly I am never going to say I was wrong to say Lee was rubbish when he was; I will, of course, say I was wrong to believe he wasn't going to get any better if he does so.

but you will find any bizarre way to try and prove Lee to be crap even if he takes 40 wickets at 10 a piece this series..you will always come up with some ar$e way to show that he isnt..like if you take away all the balls he took wickets with, he would actually not have taken any wickets in the series and threfore is crap

 

[Pratters]

One thing is for certain - I was right in saying he was rubbish before now.
And I'd guess I'm probably right in saying that I don't think he's any better now.

Lee has been rubbished too often too easily as is evident in your post even right now.

Lee has never been great bowler by any means but rubbish? Certainly not.

 

[Richard]

but you will find any bizarre way to try and prove Lee to be crap even if he takes 40 wickets at 10 a piece this series..you will always come up with some ar$e way to show that he isnt..like if you take away all the balls he took wickets with, he would actually not have taken any wickets in the series and threfore is crap

Nope, I won't, and that's where so many people on this forum get me wrong.
I just don't set everything by statistics, so if someone's got good figures for a very short time (or even a slightly longer time) I don't jump to the conclusion that they're good.
If Lee bowls some good spells, takes some wickets with wicket-taking balls and doesn't get smashed all over everywhere I'll say he's bowled well, and freely admit to being wrong in not believing he was capable of doing so.

 

[Richard]

Lee has been rubbished too often too easily as is evident in your post even right now.

Lee has never been great bowler by any means but rubbish? Certainly not.

30 Test-matches averaging almost 40 is rubbish of the highest order, especially given how good the rest of the attack he bowled with is.

 

[Pratters]

30 Test-matches averaging almost 40 is rubbish of the highest order, especially given how good the rest of the attack he bowled with is.

He was written off as a test bowler and thank god the Aussie selectors have a larger perspective. Bad periods, no matter how long does not mean the players in focus are rubbish, specially if they prove conclusively they are not rubbish.

And then please dont term it on miraclous improvements or discount it due to the pitches.

 

[Richard]

This "improvement" can be put down to nothing but the pitch, as Lee has never bowled on a pitch this seamer-friendly in his Test-career.
Lee's 2001-2003\04 period does show that he was rubbish in that time, and anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool.
If Lee makes a good Test bowler in the future it'll not change that.
And please - don't take the "miraculous improvements" bit as anything other than hypothetical.

 

[Pratters]

.
Lee's 2001-2003\04 period does show that he was rubbish in that time, and anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool.
.

Lee was poor in the period, Lee was inconsistent but I wouldnt say he was rubbish. Else he wouldnt be averaging even in the late 30s.

 

[Richard]

He was extremely poor, and certainly not very inconsistent, more consistently either poor or very poor.
If he'd been bowling with a worse fellow-attack I'm confident he'd have been averaging in the mid-40s.

 

[SpeedKing]

How can the 2nd quickest man in the world [ Shane Bond is not considered due to injury] have been thought to be rubbish. This is my first sight of Brett Lee and i am very impressed. I always think that someone with an outstanding personal attribute should never be underrated. I still think guys like Tino Best and Fidel Edwards can be stars as the have an extraordinary abilty. If i was bowling and this 6"5 fella built like a brick batting at no. 6, i would want to send him back to the pavillion as soon as possible because he could butcher my team out of the match.

i feel that Flintoff has been having the right appraoch when starting and innings but he has just not got going. It is like Gilchrist, come to the crease with high expectations but left soon after. If he gets going, i feel sorry for the attack that catchs him on a bad day, not everybody gets to hit 230 in a 20 over game you see, and not everybody gets to bowl 95mph regularly. So i think these two players are quite special and i just feel that Lee has just got out of the bolcks quicker. As an English supporter, i am hoping Freddie fulfills his potential.

 

[Pratters]

inconsistent

I meant to say inconsistent with the pitching of balls in the proper area.

If he'd been bowling with a worse fellow-attack I'm confident he'd have been averaging in the mid-40s.

Should we go into the ifs debate? Not really.

 

[Richard]

How can the 2nd quickest man in the world [ Shane Bond is not considered due to injury] have been thought to be rubbish.

Because believe it or not pace isn't actually that important, it's only useful when allied to something else.
The fact that Lee is quick is only of use if he can move the ball sideways.

This is my first sight of Brett Lee and i am very impressed. I always think that someone with an outstanding personal attribute should never be underrated. I still think guys like Tino Best and Fidel Edwards can be stars as the have an extraordinary abilty. If i was bowling and this 6"5 fella built like a brick batting at no. 6, i would want to send him back to the pavillion as soon as possible because he could butcher my team out of the match.

i feel that Flintoff has been having the right appraoch when starting and innings but he has just not got going. It is like Gilchrist, come to the crease with high expectations but left soon after. If he gets going, i feel sorry for the attack that catchs him on a bad day, not everybody gets to hit 230 in a 20 over game you see, and not everybody gets to bowl 95mph regularly. So i think these two players are quite special and i just feel that Lee has just got out of the bolcks quicker. As an English supporter, i am hoping Freddie fulfills his potential.

Lee will probably tail-off and don't bank on Flintoff coming especially good either.
And certainly don't bank on Best being anything other than totally rubbish; don't bank on Edwards making the most of his ability, either.

 

[Richard]

Should we go into the ifs debate? Not really.

Fact is Lee has been bowling with 3 good bowlers and has cashed-in on that to the extent of averaging in the late 30s.
That is utterly rubbish.

 

[Pedro Delgado]

Flintoff is doing fine as a bowler though Richard, although to extend his career a la Kallis he must become a more consistant scorer with the bat. I think he has the naked talent, it's his brain that lets him down, and one always feels the pull to mid-on isn't very far away with him. He's not quite as reckless as he used to be granted.

 

[Richard]

I don't really think he has the talent to succeed especially well against consistently accurate bowling when the ball's moving.
IMO he certainly isn't doing anywhere near as well as a bowler as most people have said since summer 2004; and he certainly bowled a pile of rubbish (and no-balls) in the most recent Test.

 

[SpeedKing]

Because believe it or not pace isn't actually that important, it's only useful when allied to something else.
The fact that Lee is quick is only of use if he can move the ball sideways.

Lee will probably tail-off and don't bank on Flintoff coming especially good either.
And certainly don't bank on Best being anything other than totally rubbish; don't bank on Edwards making the most of his ability, either.

Lee was getting sideways movemnet in the first test. one clear example is that full toss that he bowled to Pietersen. was swerving in the air. at top pace. C'mon Richard that is talent. Richard haven't you learned anything from laying into how rubbish Freddie and Harmy were. You always sem to forget Form is temporary, Class is permanent