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Glen Mcgrath - Greatest Fast Bowler of all Time ??

FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
shaka said:
thanks for that, I guess the problem is he only played 44 tests, but his average is really impressive with about 20 in test matches and first class.
Not many pace bowlers dominated during Davidson's era either, aside from the English seamers in Trueman, Statham and Bedser. Davidson was a metronome in McGrath's league (test economy rate under 2), a master of swing bowling and the best ever left-armer ahead of Wasim imo. He could also bat a bit. :p
 

C_C

International Captain
Ahead of Akram ? No.
Braddles himself said that Akram was the best leftarm seamer ever, having seen both in action in person.
But he was a damn fine bowler.....one of the alltime greats.
 

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
Along with Ambrose he is the best I've ever seen.

But I can't comment on whether he's the best ever.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
top 5 from 1970 to now not according to who's best:

1.Marshall
2.McGrath
3.Hadlee
4.Ambrose
5.Lillee
 

C_C

International Captain
IMO, top 10 pacers:

1. Malcolm Marshall
2. Richard Hadlee
3. Curtley Ambrose
4. Glenn McGrath
5. Imran Khan
6. Wasim Akram
7. Fred Trueman
8. Joel Garner
9. Alan Donald
10. Alan Davidson
 
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Will Scarlet

U19 Debutant
zinzan12 said:
Top 3 are Hadlee, Marshall and Mcgrath

following that group are Lillee, Imran and Akram for me
I'd probably swap Lillee into the top three in the place of McGrath. Good top six.

How can anyone realistically say that McGrath is better that Hadlee or Lillee when he averages just over four wickets a test while they averaged over five. And neither of Hadlee or Lillee played consistently in a team with such strong batting line-ups that put such pressure on the opposition batsmen.

Don't get me wrong though, I think McGrath is a brilliant bowler.
 

C_C

International Captain
Will Scarlet said:
I'd probably swap Lillee into the top three in the place of McGrath. Good top six.

How can anyone realistically say that McGrath is better that Hadlee or Lillee when he averages just over four wickets a test while they averaged over five. And neither of Hadlee or Lillee played consistently in a team with such strong batting line-ups that put such pressure on the opposition batsmen.

Don't get me wrong though, I think McGrath is a brilliant bowler.
I think a McGrath-Hadlee comparison is a close one, with my personal call going in favour of Hadlee but i really dont see how Lillee enters the picture.
yes, i know the legend of Lillee is extremely strong in Australia but i wouldnt put him in the best-of-the-best category(ie, top 10 or top 5), for he has too many holes in his resume.
Sure, he took bucketloads of wickets but he was rarely cheap, unless ofcourse, it was against the 'auld enemy'.
Lillee never truly got on top of the great West Indian batting lineup of those days, something that Imran Khan, Richard Hadlee and to a lesser extent, Kapil Dev had done.
Lillee hardly played in the subcontinent and the few times he played there, he was ****-poor.
People mention Packer series and its true that Lillee took a bucketload of wickets in the Packer series- far more than anyone else. But he also played far more than any other bowler and while he took wickets by the boatloads, he wasnt cheap overall ( going at around 24-25 runs through the packer supertests/tests-which is inferior to quiete a few bowlers involved).

As such, while Lillee was a great bowler, i dont see what he is doing close to that list of 'creme de la creme'.
 

C_C

International Captain
King_Ponting said:
Lillee deserves his spot in the top 5 of all time fast bowlers. He's quality.
top 5 is relative.
Was Lillee quality ? Most definately.
Was his quality, at worst, the 5th best ever ? Most definately not.
 

King_Ponting

International Regular
C_C said:
top 5 is relative.
Was Lillee quality ? Most definately.
Was his quality, at worst, the 5th best ever ? Most definately not.

How so? He averages more than 5 wickets a game and could bowl nearly every delivery....
 

C_C

International Captain
King_Ponting said:
How so? He averages more than 5 wickets a game and could bowl nearly every delivery....
Look...we are talking creme de la creme here. Every single of those bowlers that i've named could bowl every single delivery in the book.
And dont you argue that Warne is better than Murali, despite the fact that Murali averages almost SIX wickets a game, which is much more than Warne's 'almost 5 wickets/game' ratio ?

As always, a proper analysis isnt one that focuses on one particular aspect but looks at the sum total picture. For by your logic, one can say that Gayle is a better batsman than Dravid, because he has a triple ton, while Dravid doesnt.
This is to serve as an example, how one particular aspect is not the guaging parameter but the net sum total.
Yeah, Lillee has over 5 wickets/match and obviously, thats one of his strong points.

I dont know how you evaluate pace bowlers, but i evaluate them by the following guage for test cricket:

1. Overall performance( performance defined as wicket/innings ratio, # of wickets, average, strike rate,5wkts and 10fers)
2. Performance away from home
3. Performance against the best batting lineup of their time(if they happen to be in the best batting lineup, then performance against next-best)
4. A decay factor for past players.....further back in time you are from the modern era(late 1950s to current),more penalty
5. Performance in various continents
6. Consistency
7. Performance in the subcontinent
8. Performance outside the subcontinent(i rate this lower than #7, since pace bowling in the subcontinent needs certain adaptation and thinking)
9. Quality of support from the bowling attack

According to my rating system, the abovementioned 10 come ahead of Lillee- he rates lower than those bowlers cumulatively and empirically in most of the abovementioned category.
 
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FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
C_C said:
IMO, top 10 pacers:

1. Malcolm Marshall
2. Richard Hadlee
3. Curtley Ambrose
4. Glenn McGrath
5. Imran Khan
6. Wasim Akram
7. Fred Trueman
8. Joel Garner
9. Alan Donald
10. Alan Davidson
My top 10 post WW2:

1. Richard Hadlee
2. Glenn McGrath
3. Fred Trueman
4. Malcolm Marshall
5. Dennis Lillee
6. Michael Holding
7. Curtley Ambrose
8. Imran Khan
9. Alan Davidson
10. Wasim Akram

Don't see how you can not have Lillee in your top 10, and Holding and Marshall are the best of the 70s/80s Windies greats, ahead of Garner and Roberts. Donald would probably be first outside of the 10 for me, and then Garner, Miller, Roberts and Bedser.
 

C_C

International Captain
Like i said, objectively evaluating achievements doesnt put Lillee in the top 10 for me.
And yer right on one aspect- i would put Mikey Holding in that list somewhere, but not at the expense of Garner.I would actually put Davidson ahead of Donald on second thought and that bumps Donald off the list for Holding.
And mate, Akram was better than Davidson- he achieved considerably more with almost equal statistics, played in a much more competitive and diversified era of quality players and according to your stance of going by reputition, he is ahead as well (since braddles and pretty much everybody say he is the greatest left arm pacer ever).
 

King_Ponting

International Regular
C_C said:
And dont you argue that Warne is better than Murali, despite the fact that Murali averages almost SIX wickets a game, which is much more than Warne's 'almost 5 wickets/game' ratio ?

Thats because i dont believe that murali is a bowler, therefore warne is better by default
 

C_C

International Captain
King_Ponting said:
Thats because i dont believe that murali is a bowler, therefore warne is better by default
Your 'belief' has been shot down by facts a long time ago mate.
Everyone bends their elbow to some extent while bowling....well almost everyone(so far the only one who doesnt is Sarwan).
 

C_C

International Captain
King_Ponting said:
yeh i kno but im just explaining why i think warnie is a better BOWLER than murali
But your explanation is invalid- biomechanics have proven that every single bowler flexes his elbow during bowling. That is why the chucking law isnt black and white anymore but involves degree.
 

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