***Official*** New Zealand in Zimbabwe & Zimbabwe/New Zealand/India ODI Tri-Series

[AndrewM]

Originally Posted by marc71178

If Vincent and Oram are both fully fit, I wouldn't be picking Vincent...

My point is that Oram isnt fully bowling AND batting fit.. so if they were both playing as batsmen.. its a tough call i know.

So assuming Oram wouldn't bowl (he only bowled a few in the Emerging Players tournament, 5 overs for 11 runs) you would have him over Vincent?

Normally Oram would slot straight back in i agree.

[Macka]

Originally Posted by NZTailender

Yeha it's hard to go past that. How has he been in domestic? I haven't been following, TBH.

...

I'm not entirely sure how Vincent has been going to date, but superkingdave posted in the Generic Black Caps thread saying 'Vincent's form has picked up, he scored 144 last weekend He now has 490@ 45.90 and 34wickets@16.62.' That was up until July 4.

Originally Posted by AndrewM

My point is that Oram isnt fully bowling AND batting fit.. so if they were both playing as batsmen.. its a tough call i know.

So assuming Oram wouldn't bowl (he only bowled a few in the Emerging Players tournament, 5 overs for 11 runs) you would have him over Vincent?

Normally Oram would slot straight back in i agree.

AndrewM has a makes a good point: Oram has only played a handfull of 20- and 50-over matches recently. He's definitely not match fit. Plus, he barely bowled in those games, although his batting didn't seem too bad. Vincent is a certainty for mine and a fully fit Oram would make the playing XI every time. Styris on the other hand, has been playing a lot of cricket, but hasn't exactly been in-form with the bat. It's a tough decision, though. I'm just not sure Vincent is ever going to be left out of the Test XI after scoring a double-century in the previous game.

[NZTailender]

Yeah, but he shouldn't be batting at six in the order. I would say fourth, but Fleming, for my mind, bats best there, with Astle at fifth. So where do you put Vincent? At six, where I'd rather have an all round player like Oram.

Vincent is great at 4, though...Astle at 5th.

Perhaps something like this:

1. Cumming
2. J Marshall
3. H Marshall
4. Vincent
5. Fleming
6. Astle
7. Oram
8. McCullum
9. Vettori
10. Franklin
11. Bond

Or do you put Oram in at six, leave out Vincent and shuffle them upwards, brinhing in another quick bowler? Then there's also Styris.

I guess it's a matter of who's in domestic form vs who's not and how they fare in some tour matches.

Vincent averages 14 at 6th, while 59 at 4th..

[Tim]

Well if your leaving Oram out on that basis, then surely Bond should be left out as well?

[Blaze]

Bond has been bowling for ages though.. I think he even played about 4 first class games for Canterbury so it is kind of diferent

[Blaze]

For me Styris doesn't play. Vincent has to play with his last score being a double century and Oram needs to ease back in at international level. Zimbabwe is the best opportunity for him to do this

[NZTailender]

You're right Tim. Would have to see how he performs up until then compared with Martin, Mills, Butler even...

[marc71178]

Originally Posted by AndrewM

So assuming Oram wouldn't bowl (he only bowled a few in the Emerging Players tournament, 5 overs for 11 runs) you would have him over Vincent?

I wasn't aware of that actually.

However, I would still be tempted to pick him at 6 to bowl a few overs if required.

Firstly because it's only Zimbabwe, but also because if Vincent gets a bat and scores big - the selectors will then have a huge call on their hands.

[Macka]

Just been watching TV3 and there's nothing but good news regarding Bond's fitness. He came through the Emerging Players' Tournament well over in Oz. No soreness the days after play.

I think Fleming will play at 4 in the order. Whether or not he should be there is another question. He's been at 4 for his county, too. Astle seems like he one of the selectors' favourties, so I think he will start. Vincent should be at 5 because Astle is a faster scorer than Vincent, who can score very quickly, but does need time at the crease to do so. Astle at 6; Oram may well play, but I think the lead-in games will reveal more about Bracewell's intentions.

The middle-order looks good with players competing for positions. However, the real concern, as always, is the top-order. Specifically the openers - both of who will be looking for very solid performances to justify being picked.

[Macka]

Originally Posted by marc71178

...
Firstly because it's only Zimbabwe, but also because if Vincent gets a bat and scores big - the selectors will then have a huge call on their hands.

They already do to an extent; Vincent scored a double-century in the last Test New Zealand played. He has to play. Surely. Is Boycott the only person to be dropped after scoing a double-century? Could be wrong about that, but Vincent will start.

[Smudge]

Originally Posted by NZTailender

Yeah, but he shouldn't be batting at six in the order. I would say fourth, but Fleming, for my mind, bats best there, with Astle at fifth. So where do you put Vincent? At six, where I'd rather have an all round player like Oram.

Vincent is great at 4, though...Astle at 5th.

Perhaps something like this:

1. Cumming
2. J Marshall
3. H Marshall
4. Vincent
5. Fleming
6. Astle
7. Oram
8. McCullum
9. Vettori
10. Franklin
11. Bond

Or do you put Oram in at six, leave out Vincent and shuffle them upwards, brinhing in another quick bowler? Then there's also Styris.

I guess it's a matter of who's in domestic form vs who's not and how they fare in some tour matches.

Vincent averages 14 at 6th, while 59 at 4th..

How deep is that batting line-up? Even Bondy has a first-class hundred.

[sportychic33]

Originally Posted by NZTailender

Yeah, but he shouldn't be batting at six in the order. I would say fourth, but Fleming, for my mind, bats best there, with Astle at fifth. So where do you put Vincent? At six, where I'd rather have an all round player like Oram.

Vincent is great at 4, though...Astle at 5th.

Perhaps something like this:

1. Cumming
2. J Marshall
3. H Marshall
4. Vincent
5. Fleming
6. Astle
7. Oram
8. McCullum
9. Vettori
10. Franklin
11. Bond

Or do you put Oram in at six, leave out Vincent and shuffle them upwards, brinhing in another quick bowler? Then there's also Styris.

I guess it's a matter of who's in domestic form vs who's not and how they fare in some tour matches.

Vincent averages 14 at 6th, while 59 at 4th..

I think you could possibly leave vincent out and shuffle them upwards and stick in another bowler possibly mills so that if oram is up to bowling too many overs we have enough cover. that way oram can get match practice and overs under his belt to be ready for the one day series.

[NZTailender]

Originally Posted by sportychic33

I think you could possibly leave vincent out and shuffle them upwards and stick in another bowler possibly mills so that if oram is up to bowling too many overs we have enough cover. that way oram can get match practice and overs under his belt to be ready for the one day series.

Perhaps a better way is to have 1 team for each match. One with 4 bowlers (Bond, Franklin, Oram, Mills/Martin/Butler/misc) + Astle then for the next match leave out a bowler for Vincent to come in, in or the other way around. I think the top three really need to be given a good run. Especially the opening pair. H Marshall I think will be a stalwart No. 3. for years to come.

[marc71178]

Originally Posted by Macka

They already do to an extent; Vincent scored a double-century in the last Test New Zealand played. He has to play. Surely. Is Boycott the only person to be dropped after scoing a double-century? Could be wrong about that, but Vincent will start.

I wasn't aware of that - so it makes it a very hard call to make then!

[aussie]

my best Kiwi side

C.Cumming
S.Fleming
H.Marshall
S.Styris
N.Astle
L.Vincent/or another seamer in C.Martin or D.Tuffey
J.Oram
B.McCullum
D.Vettori
J.Franklyn
S.Bond