Matty Hayden is brilliant on seaming wickets !!

[Richard]

How is it not impossible?

Think about it... if a) there were green Gabba wickets in the 90s, and b) Hayden played every game (bar one here or there) for Queensland during the 90s and c) every FC game at the Gabba had Queensland and therefore Hayden in it... he played on green tops. And if green tops were regular at the Gabba, he regularly played on green tops. If he averaged 57 despite regularly playing on green tops, he either succeeded quite well on them, or failed on them and absolutely brutalised bowling when the wicket wasn't green with a Bradmansque average. Either way, he is clearly capable of being a successful batsman when pitch conditions trend towards being bowler helpful, which is what counts.

What is possible is that he averaged 35-40 on the greentops (not impossible given that, as v_o has demonstrated, the bowling was good without neccessarily being capable of exploiting his weakness - just because someone is a good bowler doesn't mean they can bowl the nip-backer to order - McGrath, for instance) and absolutely battered it (like he did for much of the time in Tests between 2001\02 and 2003\04) when it was flat.
What the exact ratio is, though, we'll almost certainly never know.

 

[Mister Wright]

What is possible is that he averaged 35-40 on the greentops (not impossible given that, as v_o has demonstrated, the bowling was good without neccessarily being capable of exploiting his weakness - just because someone is a good bowler doesn't mean they can bowl the nip-backer to order - McGrath, for instance) and absolutely battered it (like he did for much of the time in Tests between 2001\02 and 2003\04) when it was flat.
What the exact ratio is, though, we'll almost certainly never know.

Who cares? He proved to everyone that he can score runs on seaming wickets, I'm sure he's not losing any sleep about you not thinking so. Just because he had one poor series in England, doesn't mean anything. And to average in the high 50s over a long period of time and to average 35-40 in half of those games in one venue, would mean he would have to average something like 70-80 if not more at other venues, surely even you can see the idiocy in this belief. Let it go Richard, you can't win this one.

 

[Richard]

No, I don't see the idiocy in it at all - he's shown quite clearly that he's capable of doing that.
And no, one series in England doesn't prove much - 4 Tests in England (which is all it was - The Oval certainly wasn't seam-friendly and amazingly that was where he scored his one half-century), plus another few elsewhere, do.
I couldn't give a flying fu<k whether he minds about my perception of him - hardly like many international cricketers know about anyone's perception of them except the most prominent correspondants and their fellows.
I will, however, continue to hold that perception until such time as Hayden scores some runs in Test-cricket against decent swing-bowling.

 

[Mister Wright]

No, I don't see the idiocy in it at all - he's shown quite clearly that he's capable of doing that.
And no, one series in England doesn't prove much - 4 Tests in England (which is all it was - The Oval certainly wasn't seam-friendly and amazingly that was where he scored his one half-century), plus another few elsewhere, do.
I couldn't give a flying fu<k whether he minds about my perception of him - hardly like many international cricketers know about anyone's perception of them except the most prominent correspondants and their fellows.
I will, however, continue to hold that perception until such time as Hayden scores some runs in Test-cricket against decent swing-bowling.

So now you're saying that Hayden is the equal of Bradman. It would be very hard over a 5 year period to average at that extreme in the 70s and 80s. Come on Richard use your common sense rather than just trying to make things appear correct 'out of the blue'. Most Australians who have seen Hayden bat regularly will attest (sp) to his outstanding ability and evenmoreso his ability on green wickets.

 

[Richard]

No, I've never said he was the equal of Bradman - I've repeatedly said I reckon if Bradman had played where Hayden has he might well have averaged 150 or so.
It wouldn't be at all hard, at all, for Hayden to average in the 70s if the pitches were flat enough, indeed he's done it.
Not just "attempting to make things appear correct, eh?

 

[Mister Wright]

No, I've never said he was the equal of Bradman - I've repeatedly said I reckon if Bradman had played where Hayden has he might well have averaged 150 or so.
It wouldn't be at all hard, at all, for Hayden to average in the 70s if the pitches were flat enough, indeed he's done it.
Not just "attempting to make things appear correct, eh?

Yes, and I'm sure all of those pitches in all of the circumstances were flat pancakes. Come on man, just let it go. Life will be a lot less stressful.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

What is possible is that he averaged 35-40 on the greentops (not impossible given that, as v_o has demonstrated, the bowling was good without neccessarily being capable of exploiting his weakness - just because someone is a good bowler doesn't mean they can bowl the nip-backer to order - McGrath, for instance) and absolutely battered it (like he did for much of the time in Tests between 2001\02 and 2003\04) when it was flat.
What the exact ratio is, though, we'll almost certainly never know.

Err, an average of 35-40 on greentops (serious greentops at the Gabba) is very, very good. Anybody would take that with pleasure, especially if they are smashing it everywhere when the pitches are flatter.

 

[Richard]

Yes, and I'm sure all of those pitches in all of the circumstances were flat pancakes. Come on man, just let it go. Life will be a lot less stressful.

Almost all were, indeed.

 

[Richard]

Err, an average of 35-40 on greentops (serious greentops at the Gabba) is very, very good. Anybody would take that with pleasure, especially if they are smashing it everywhere when the pitches are flatter.

They would indeed.
Question is - how often was Hayden's weakness being tested on these supposed serious greentops?
How good are Jo Angel and co. at the inswinger?

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

They would indeed.
Question is - how often was Hayden's weakness being tested on these supposed serious greentops?
How good are Jo Angel and co. at the inswinger?

I don't know about Jo Angel specifically... someone who remembers his bowling a bit more clearly than I could tell you... mostly I think of him as a bowler who hit the pitch hard rather than a swing bowler. No doubt you know that Damien Fleming, Geoff Lawson and Terry Alderman were more than proficient at it though, just from the bowlers that vic_orthodox listed. I think it's fair to say that there were plenty of bowlers in Australian domestic cricket in the early to mid 90s capable of bowling inswingers when conditions suited, especially with the brand new ball which Hayden faced in each match.

 

[Richard]

Fleming, certainly. How often would he have faced Alderman and Lawson? Lawson finished in 1991\92, Alderman the season after.
If at all it won't have been much. He certainly never faced Lawson, and his encounters with Alderman resulted in first-innings c Zoehrer 10, second-innings c Zoehrer 93 (WA scored 444 in between with a century for Langer, so if it was seaming early it couldn't have been doing too much thereafter) in 1991\92; and in 1992\93 he was lbw b Reid 8 and c Veletta b Julian 63, on a pitch that seems to have been a seamer throughout.
So certainly he never prospered massively against an attack including Alderman at The 'Gabba. How much this proves is anyone's guess.
With regards Fleming - your turn, if you so wish.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Fleming, certainly. How often would he have faced Alderman and Lawson? Lawson finished in 1991\92, Alderman the season after.
If at all it won't have been much. He certainly never faced Lawson, and his encounters with Alderman resulted in first-innings c Zoehrer 10, second-innings c Zoehrer 93 (WA scored 444 in between with a century for Langer, so if it was seaming early it couldn't have been doing too much thereafter) in 1991\92; and in 1992\93 he was lbw b Reid 8 and c Veletta b Julian 63, on a pitch that seems to have been a seamer throughout.
So certainly he never prospered massively against an attack including Alderman at The 'Gabba. How much this proves is anyone's guess.
With regards Fleming - your turn, if you so wish.

His record, so far as I can see, against Victoria featuring Fleming at the Gabba:
8 & 116
64 & 11
18 & DNB
103 & DNB

So 320 @ 53.33.

Still, looking through these scorecards shows that there are plenty of bowlers who would have been capable of exploiting seaming conditions. I mean, just in the Victoria at the Gabba scorecards he regularly faced Hughes, Reiffel, Fleming, Saker and Inness, often with several in the same team.

 

[Mister Wright]

His record, so far as I can see, against Victoria featuring Fleming at the Gabba:
8 & 116
64 & 11
18 & DNB
103 & DNB

So 320 @ 53.33.

Still, looking through these scorecards shows that there are plenty of bowlers who would have been capable of exploiting seaming conditions. I mean, just in the Victoria at the Gabba scorecards he regularly faced Hughes, Reiffel, Fleming, Saker and Inness, often with several in the same team.

Not that it relates to the debate about seaming wickets. But, he often demolished Warne aswell on the rare chance they got to face each other.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Not that it relates to the debate about seaming wickets. But, he often demolished Warne aswell on the rare chance they got to face each other.

As does just about every Australian domestic batsman.

 

[tooextracool]

its the total opposite richard, when their is assistance on the wicket Harmison has been menacing but when their is none the opposite happens has was shown in the Caribbean where he was menacing and in SA recently

its more uneven bounce than seaming wickets. of course at his best hes more than capable on any wicket.

 

[Richard]

At his best he's capable of inducing poor strokes on any pitch.
So is anyone who's lucky enough.
For Harmison, not surprisingly, it's not happened very often.

 

[Richard]

As does just about every Australian domestic batsman.

Indeed it's utterly curious how he manages to average 35.39 for Victoria.
Makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[Richard]

Not that it relates to the debate about seaming wickets. But, he often demolished Warne aswell on the rare chance they got to face each other.

Well that's not really very surprising considering he's one of if not the best player of spin going around.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Indeed it's utterly curious how he manages to average 35.39 for Victoria.
Makes no sense whatsoever.

I've heard people involved with the state side bemoan that when both Ian Harvey and Shane Warne are playing for Victoria, it's very hard to win when there's only 9 players actually trying...

Alternatively, it might go to show that Warne at Test level gets a lot of his wickets through aura and reputation as opposed to the actual craft of bowling, as opposed to state level stuff where people just say "To hell, lets attack him"?

Not saying its either, but just throwing up suggestions.

 

[Richard]

His record, so far as I can see, against Victoria featuring Fleming at the Gabba:
8 & 116
64 & 11
18 & DNB
103 & DNB

So 320 @ 53.33.

In short it's 2 centuries, 1 half and 3 failures.
For all we know the 103 & DNB match might've been a flat pitch and the 116 one might've flattened-out (what were intermening scores?)
It's not completely conclusive either way.
I've still got grounds on which to say his failures in Test-cricket have some meaning.

Still, looking through these scorecards shows that there are plenty of bowlers who would have been capable of exploiting seaming conditions. I mean, just in the Victoria at the Gabba scorecards he regularly faced Hughes, Reiffel, Fleming, Saker and Inness, often with several in the same team.

Who's Saker?
Inness, brilliant as he was before 2004\05, has never shown me an extraordinary ability to bowl round-the-wicket and swing it away from right-handers. Maybe people who've seen more of him might be able to elaborate.
Hughes's domestic record isn't exactly flash, only averages 27.56 at The 'Gabba.
Wonder about his record against Reiffel too.