Mickey Arthur?

[Richard]

So it's impossible that Flintoff bowled 2 different balls on 2 different days, both of which fooled Lara?

It's impossible - unless you can provide some reason why a bowler can force a batsman not to pick-up a ball.

I wonder, had it been Gough (or the oh-so-great Craig White) bowling that ball, what would your reaction to it have been?

If the same thing had applied I'd say the same thing - amazingly enough.

 

[Richard]

and that had to do with his imrpovement in accuracy post wc 03.
while he got good figures in both SL and the WI it was still glaringly obvious that he was a nothing special bowler, its only since the summer of 04 that hes really become a major part of the england bowling attack.

Interesting one that... as so often you have a slightly different view on things to most that I argue against.
Funny how you say he was unlucky against SA in 2003, though - thus implying that he bowled pretty well then and subsequently didn't.

nope he was far more lucky in the series against SA than he was at any point of his career before that. not to mention of course SA is a far better team than SL and india are away from home.

They are, of course.
Nonetheless Flintoff had 9 catches dropped in the 5 SA Tests; he had 11 dropped in the 6 SL\Ind Tests. And in both summers he also had the innumerable play-and-misses that were perceived as unlucky when in fact they resulted mostly from bowling too short.

 

[marc71178]

It's impossible - unless you can provide some reason why a bowler can force a batsman not to pick-up a ball.

The ball was quicker and had more bounce than was expected, hence the edge and hence the fact it's a top delivery from someone who is fast becoming one of the top bowlers around.

Just because you can't accept that people can change doesn't mean it doesn't actually happen.

If the same thing had applied I'd say the same thing - amazingly enough.

And we all know that is not true, the rules change if it's a player you like (see G Smith for numerous examples)

 

[Richard]

The ball was quicker and had more bounce than was expected, hence the edge

No, that'd not have caused him any problems if he'd picked the ball up properly.

and hence the fact it's a top delivery from someone who is fast becoming one of the top bowlers around.

Just because you can't accept that people can change doesn't mean it doesn't actually happen.

And we all know that is not true, the rules change if it's a player you like (see G Smith for numerous examples)

Indeed? Care to give some of these examples, then?
Care to find where I've said no-one can change?

 

[marc71178]

No, that'd not have caused him any problems if he'd picked the ball up properly.

And of course the fact that the ball bounced more than he was expecting and was quicker than previous were irrelevant weren't they?

 

[tooextracool]

Interesting one that... as so often you have a slightly different view on things to most that I argue against.
Funny how you say he was unlucky against SA in 2003, though - thus implying that he bowled pretty well then and subsequently didn't.

he was accurate in the series against SA and has been accurate ever since. and its been reflected in his figures, even if some of it(such as his performance in SL) has been exaggerated by poor strokes. since the summer of 04 hes actually bowled brilliantly.

They are, of course.
Nonetheless Flintoff had 9 catches dropped in the 5 SA Tests; he had 11 dropped in the 6 SL\Ind Tests.

and its quite conceivable that SL and india played more poor strokes, and really with SL in particular is that really a surprise?

 

[Richard]

And of course the fact that the ball bounced more than he was expecting and was quicker than previous were irrelevant weren't they?

They were indeed, because we've seen him and other batsman play a bit of extra bounce and pace without any real difficulty.
What made him unable to play it was not the extra bounce and tiny bit of extra pace, but the fact that he didn't pick it up.

 

[Richard]

he was accurate in the series against SA and has been accurate ever since. and its been reflected in his figures, even if some of it(such as his performance in SL) has been exaggerated by poor strokes. since the summer of 04 hes actually bowled brilliantly.

I'll confess I didn't watch in 2004 as much as I'd have liked, but certainly in SA there wasn't a massive amount of difference between how he'd bowled in 2002, 2003 and in SL in 2003\04.
I'm glad someone else realises he didn't actually bowl that well in WI in 2003\04.

and its quite conceivable that SL and india played more poor strokes, and really with SL in particular is that really a surprise?

Not an amazing number - Flintoff in 2002 averaged 60.81 and in 2003 59.20.
I'd say SA generally batted a bit better overall than the two in 2002, but not massively so.
Anyway, the only dropped catch out of both summers combined that was off a wicket-taking delivery was Sehwag by Hussain (at slip, for some reason) at Lord's.

 

[marc71178]

Whatever you say.

I still stand by my comment that had it been someone like Gough who bowled it, you'd have been raving about it.

It was a superb delivery to one of the greats of our time, and only 1 person is denying that...

 

[Richard]

Whatever you say.

I still stand by my comment that had it been someone like Gough who bowled it, you'd have been raving about it.

And, as you're so fond of saying, you cannot possibly know best because you are not me and don't know what I'm thinking. And in this instance, because the only means of your even guessing my thoughts is by reading posts, I'm well qualified to say you haven't a clue what you're on.
Whoever bowled that delivery I'd be able to spot the basic fact that Lara clearly didn't sight it.

It was a superb delivery to one of the greats of our time, and only 1 person is denying that...

No, plenty of people (not least Lara himself who said "several times I had trouble picking-up Flintoff in those 2 Tests) realise that it was a dangerous delivery for only one reason - that it wasn't picked-up properly, exactly as another completely different delivery from the same bowler hadn't been just 2 innings ago...

 

[tooextracool]

Not an amazing number - Flintoff in 2002 averaged 60.81 and in 2003 59.20.
I'd say SA generally batted a bit better overall than the two in 2002, but not massively so.
Anyway, the only dropped catch out of both summers combined that was off a wicket-taking delivery was Sehwag by Hussain (at slip, for some reason) at Lord's.

we've been through all this wicket taking nonsense before, and we dont agree on what is one and what isnt. and its not particularly surprising if he didnt bowl that many wicket taking deliveries that summer, for reasons already explained.

 

[Richard]

Take a check through the dropped catches of the summers of 2002 and 2003, I highly doubt you'll have much disagreement over which deliveries were wicket-taking.