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Thread: Hear, Hear, Hear : Lend me your Ear

  1. #376
    School Boy/Girl Captain steve132's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJS View Post
    GRAND OPENING

    We are proud to announce the reopening iof the Stats factory on popular demand (although some murmurs are being heard from radical corners that this factory is spreading reactionary products that are weaning the cricketing public away from their most loved sport on the planet The Cricket stats !!

    Hmmm. To each his own. We cater to our customers.

    The new product we have been commissioned to come up with is an analysis to prove/or disprove the theory that the incomparable Mohammad sami, the beloved son of millions from the holy land would, if the selectors in their senility wouldn't keep dropping him, eventually reach and overtake the 235 wickets in 93 Test matches taken by Sir Garfield Sobers.

    Aha. This should be a cake walk or is it a piece of cake .... what ever.

    Here are Sami's figures over his first 32 Tests. I have taken 32 not for some ulterior motive but to be able to reduce the work load - he did not do anything different in his 33rd test.

    I have divided it into lots of 4 Tests each.

    Here is what he has done so far.

    Code:
    Test #	Wkts	Avg	Wkts/Test
    4	14	34.7	3.5
    8	24	36.8	3.0
    12	32	43.6	2.7
    16	43	45.4	2.7
    20	53	47.9	2.7
    24	65	46.1	2.7
    28	73	48.4	2.6
    32	77	51.3	2.4
    First things first. At the rate at which he is taking wickets how long will it take him to take 235 wickets.

    What we did was to then extrapolate the trend of Sami's wicket taking rate (Wickets per Test) and see what happens to it. We were in for a shock.

    It appeared that by the time Sami reached his 118th Test, his Wickets per test would drop to 0.

    Oh holy - cow dung !!

    But wait surely in that many Tests, or much before that, our beloved Sami, would have crossed the silly landmark the West Indian fans crow needlessly about. Afterall our client was so sure he would do it by the 93rd itself. So we multiplied the cumulative Tests with the advancing (steeply downwards) wicket taking rate to see what happens to the aggregate wickets.

    Here is the graph. Have a look.

    It appears that our hero would approach the first target of 100 (approach not reach) in his 60th Test and then in the next 60 Test he would somehow manage to return these wickets to the opposition by taking the same number of negative wickets.

    Holy - bovine excreta.

    We'll be back. Have faith we know our chump can do it. Have faith.
    SJS:

    This thread was great when it started, but unfortunately it no longer seems quite as funny as it was. Real life has overtaken the parody. We have seen too many recent posts that claim to be based on statistical analysis but are devoid of both logic and an understanding of cricket.

  2. #377
    SJS
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve132 View Post
    SJS:

    This thread was great when it started, but unfortunately it no longer seems quite as funny as it was. Real life has overtaken the parody. We have seen too many recent posts that claim to be based on statistical analysis but are devoid of both logic and an understanding of cricket.
    Well said.

    In fact, this thread WAS started to drill some sense into those making indiscriminate use of statistics (quite an impossible task when you realise that the poor souls have nothing if they dont have even statistics). That purpose went completely unrealised but we did have a bit of a laugh and also tested our own 'innovativeness' to try and 'prove' the ridiculous. Just for kicks.

    Even that lost its charm hence I withdrew in large and it was manned with distinction by 'understudies' some of whom did a fantastic job.

    Now it has been brought up since a fantastic claim (even by the fantastic standards of this fantastic poster) has been made which gave me a chance to revisit the ruins as it were.



    But having started this Sami - the potential Sobers excercise we might as well finish the job for , howsoever deaf the unhearing and unseeing might be, sarcasm still makes a point - and guess what, we use stats to do it. Now you cant argue with figures can you, rubber like, twisted but malleable figures

  3. #378
    Hall of Fame Member honestbharani's Avatar
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    Look, SJS, I mean to be nice and all............ But YOU, of all people, should know that whatever Sami can do, our Lord and Saviour AA can do it better.....





    Right now, I demand the factory to take this as high priority and prove that Agarkar would have not only reached/bettered Sobers bowling records by his 93rd test, but also his batting records!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




    Now get on it..












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    In the end, I think it's so utterly, incomprehensibly boring. There is so much context behind each innings of cricket that dissecting statistics into these small samples is just worthless. No-one has ever been faced with the same situation in which they come out to bat as someone else. Ever.
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  5. #380
    Hall of Fame Member Son Of Coco's Avatar
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    Woh woh woh...

    What's going on here!?

    I've seen people in the streets holding signs about the second coming, but this is remarkable!

    "What is this what is this who is this guy shouting what is this going on in here?" - CP. (re: psxpro)

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  6. #381
    SJS
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    Quote Originally Posted by Son Of Coco View Post

    The Question: Is Steven Tikolo a better cricketer than Sir Donald Bradman

    The Answer: Of course he bloody well is!

    In fact, he's so much better a comparison of the two players borders on unfair...
    Well you answered it yourself SoC. I suppose what you need now is some clerical work by the statisticians to use as annexures. Here it is.

    Is Steve Tikolo a better batsman than Donald Bradman


    Well the short answer to that question, as SoC has so succinctly put it is ... YES.

    For those enamoured with long winded rationale and evidence, statistics etc. here is the detail.

    It is not easy to compare Bradman and Tikolo on their Test record. Not because Tikolo's isn't good enough but because it isn't - its just not there. The cruel ICC continues to discriminate against the underprivileged from the third world and superstars like Steve Tikolo are forced to showcase their wares in the next rung of competitive cricket - First Class Cricket.

    Its not easy, as members of this forum are wll aware, to compare players from two different eras so we had to devise basic criteria which would be universally applicable across eras. We chose :-
    1. Versatility : Meaning ability to play in different conditions, in different climes, in different countries etc.
    2. Performance at Peak : Its generally accepted that players must be assessed at their peaks. Players tend to have different lengths of careers, some retire early while others play much beyond their use-by date and so on.
    3. Performance in Adversity
    4. Utility to the Team Beyond Batting


    Versatility :
    Bradman tended to play most of his First Class Cricket (which is what we are discussing here) exclusively at home. In between (just 3 times in 20 years !!) he went to England, virtually a home away from home since it was the father-land his fore-fathers came from. Where as Tikolo played his cricket jumping countries almost like a nomad. Have a look.

    • Bradman never, ever played in such diverse conditions in his entire twenty year career. The closest he came to it was in the three seasons of 1929-30, 1930, 1930-31 when he played in three different countries. Australia, England and Scotland. Lets offer some concession to this over-rated Aussie and count it as four (he played Australia both at the beginning and the end of this period and what do we find. He averaged 96.3 in all first class games but you know what ? He wasn’t a match to our man Tikolo - the man for all seasons and all climes all countries and all continents.
    • In three seasons in succession (2005, 2005-6, and 2006, Tikolo played first class cricket in four different countries. First in Uganda, then Namibia, , then Zimbabwe and finally at home in Kenya. Averaging 100.55 !!


    Performance at Peak :
    I have always found something very fishy about Bradman’s record. Year after year he kept ratcheting up the same kind of numbers close to or just above a hundred in averages. You will agree that this sounds more suspicious than Ahmadinijad’s winning massive majority in city after Iranian city. If he averaged in the seventies in his worst years and close to hundred overall, when did he ever play really really well ? A valid question you will agree. So I decided to put Bradman’s best to test.

    • In the Aussie season of 1938-39, Bradman had his best ever FC performance, averaging 153.2. Very good indeed.
    • Now we turn to our poor black man from impoverished Africa. His best year was 2006 in Kenya, He averaged a whopping 278.0 !!


    I wont insult Tikolo by calling those figures Bradmanesque.

    I can hear some murmurs in the background of disgruntled Aussies cribbing about a one off fluke. You just cant please these damn Aussies can you. Nevertheless, I decided to take the next best season of both these champions.
    • Bradman had his next best FC season again at home in 1933-34 when he averaged 132.4. Well we cant be surprised can we.
    • We turn our attention to our man Tikolo and find that he had his next best FC season in 2000-01 also at home, in Kenya – he averaged 156 !!


    Well, well well. Where did those whinging Aussie fans disappear ??

    Although there are no more murmurs on this account, I decided to put this figure to a still more rigorous test. I added the top THREE seasons of each player by adding Bradman’s next best of 1935-36 and Tikolo’s next best of 2005 in Namibia. Here are the combined averages
    • Bradman : 136.8
    • Tikolo : 170.3


    Bradman supporters tend to hide the fact that Bradman never played in any ICC recognized country other than two, at home and in England. He went to Scotland but never batted there.

    Steve Tikolo on the other hand played in as many as eleven ICC recognized countries, four of them being Test playing nations ! Well, well, well. Sticking to home turf and friendly nations are we Sir Donald ?


    Performance in Adversity
    Talking of friendly countries, without wanting to rake up sensitive and emotional issues, one cant help remind ourselves of the background of the two gentlemen. The first, a white man, from a developed country, ancestors from THE imperial power of the word used to being the ‘lords and masters’ of the lowly aborigines and other such ‘backward’ and coloured people.

    The other, a blackman, from impoverished Africa, ancestors enslaved by the same white people who were the ancestors of Sir Donald and worse still with the sword of racism hanging permanently over him. Yet this poor man had no options of playing cricket when he started out except in neighboring South Africa with all the associated race issues of the recent past.

    Does it deter our hero? No. He plays his very first season of FC cricket (1995-96) in the same South Africa for the regional side of Border scoring 240 runs – exactly 240 more than the number Sir Donald scored in that country.

    Utility to the Team Beyond Batting
    Although this discussion is about their relative batting strengths, we would be failing in our task if we did not touch upon other aspects of their cricket.

    Bowling :
    Sir Donald is known to be a bowler of leg breaks and has two Test wickets to his credit, one of those being of Walter Hammond one of the greatest batsmen of all time. In all first class cricket Bradman has the following bowling record

    • Matches : 234
    • Wickets : 36
    • Avg : 38.0
    • Str Rate : 80.0
    • Wkts/Match : 0.15
    • 5 Wkt hauls : ZILCH
    • Best : 3 for 35


    Now our hero from the starving Africa.
    • Matches : 46
    • Wickets : 63
    • Avg : 37.8
    • Str Rate : 70.1
    • Wkts/Match : 1.37
    • 5 Wkt hauls : 1
    • Best : 6 for 80


    I do not need to add any comments !

    Fielding :
    • Bradman is considered a dependable outfielders of his time and took
      • 131 catches in
      • 234 FC games at
      • 0.56 catches per match.
    • Tikolo considered one of the fleetest footed outfielders in the world, took
      • 41 catches in his
      • 46 FC games at
      • 0.89 catches per match.


    I think out of sheer regard for the state the Bradman supporters must be we won't rub it in. Simply...

    Q.E.D.

  7. #382
    First Class Debutant Bouncer's Avatar
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    Can some prove following

    1) Ajit Agarkar is way better all rounder than Wasim Akrem ( I have seen this been attempted on indian cricket forums)

    2) Sreesanth is more Hard core than Javed Miandad.
    Last edited by Bouncer; 08-07-2009 at 10:13 PM.
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  8. #383
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Samuel_Vimes's Avatar
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  9. #384
    SJS
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bouncer View Post
    Can some prove folowing

    1) Ajit Agarkar is way better all rounder than Wasim Akrem ( I have seen this been attempted on indian cricket forums)

    2) Sreesanth is more Hard core than Javed Miandad.
    It is blasphemy to even mention the name of the all-mighty AAA (PBUH) in the same breath as mere mortals. I would tremble at the thought of entertaining such a request but I have seen the public demand for such a deesrtation and very reluctantly, indeed, I shall do so. I promise you, you will never, ever, dare to put the two of them on the same page - they dont even belong in the same library

  10. #385
    Hall of Fame Member Son Of Coco's Avatar
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    I set this thread free and thus it has returned, like a true love always does. I'm up for resuming my statistician position SJS, and if that last sentence is anything to go by this period of my employment might become known as 'rhyme time'.

    That Sreesanth is more hard core than Javed Miandad may be difficult to prove without access to cricinfo's member's only 'Hardcore Stats' section.

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    SJS
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    Quote Originally Posted by Son Of Coco View Post
    I set this thread free and thus it has returned, like a true love always does. I'm up for resuming my statistician position SJS, and if that last sentence is anything to go by this period of my employment might become known as 'rhyme time'.

    That Sreesanth is more hard core than Javed Miandad may be difficult to prove without access to cricinfo's member's only 'Hardcore Stats' section.
    Okay you have your job back and also your first assignment - Sreesanth versus Miandad on the Hard core stakes (whatever that may mean). Dont attempt the AAA one. I am through with it and it is a matter of faith

  12. #387
    First Class Debutant Bouncer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJS View Post
    It is blasphemy to even mention the name of the all-mighty AAA (PBUH) in the same breath as mere mortals. I would tremble at the thought of entertaining such a request but I have seen the public demand for such a deesrtation and very reluctantly, indeed, I shall do so. I promise you, you will never, ever, dare to put the two of them on the same page - they dont even belong in the same library

    I am waiting for your piece on Ajit>>>>>>Akram...this should be great reading!

    What i meant by Sreesanth being more hard core was that for someone to prove that sree is more aggressive, more of a street fighter than JM and sree over the years have given us enough pictures that can be used to prove that JM is no match for sree's aggressiveness!

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    Great thread !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bouncer View Post
    I am waiting for your piece on Ajit>>>>>>Akram...this should be great reading!

    What i meant by Sreesanth being more hard core was that for someone to prove that sree is more aggressive, more of a street fighter than JM and sree over the years have given us enough pictures that can be used to prove that JM is no match for sree's aggressiveness!
    How dare u call him Ajit .u should call him adding either Sir or His highness to his name.

    Sir Ajit Agarkar is the best ever
    Last edited by funnygirl; 11-07-2009 at 01:35 PM.

  15. #390
    SJS
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bouncer View Post
    I am waiting for your piece on Ajit>>>>>>Akram...this should be great reading!
    Coming up, after this short break

    Quote Originally Posted by funnygirl View Post
    How dare u call him Ajit .u should call him adding either Sir or His highness to his name.

    Sir Ajit Agarkar is the best ever
    You said it FG. I would only disagree that a knighthood or any other worldly titles are good enough or indeed needed for our, haathi ke kaan wallah, cricketing deity !

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