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Hear, Hear, Hear : Lend me your Ear

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
SJS and Vic, take a bow. Those stats prove exactly what I have said all along....


Ambrose > Lara
McGrath > Ponting
Bashar > Ponting
Bangladesh >Australia.


Long live SJS, Long live the SJS Stats Factory. :)
 

vic_orthdox

Global Moderator
Anil said:
you have way too much time on your hands man... :laugh:
OK, positive feedback only. I'm sick and tired of our dedication to exposing the many myths of world cricket being denigrated by casual observers. Hope you don't need any myths exposed yourself, Anil... :@

Hakon, that was sublime. SJS, your standard is beyond all of our reach...even if you didn't use all that wonderful formatting. I think that we are all up to date. New assignments please, public...
 

vic_orthdox

Global Moderator
honestbharani said:
SJS and Vic, take a bow. Those stats prove exactly what I have said all along....


Ambrose > Lara
McGrath > Ponting
Bashar > Ponting
Bangladesh >Australia.


Long live SJS, Long live the SJS Stats Factory. :)
Haha, the funny thing is that I didn't actually take part in any of them. Now I feel lazy...
 

Sudeep

International Captain
SJS said:
Lara versus Ambrose : Comparing West Indian Batting Genius !!

This is one comparison that has come to us where two all time greats are being compared. This is not a case where we can say things like x is not fit to lick the muck of y's shoes. No sir ! These are two all time greats and we need to look very carefuly to see the subtle differences and settle this argument.

Consistency

There has ben a lot of discussion of late about Tendulkar's batting. His supporters refuse to accept that he has slipped into a batting form from which he will never recover and should retire. To support this argument they offer his average of 90 something in test matches in 2004. Similar averages are toted by Laxman's fans to boost his claim to a place in the Indian ODI team.

However the detractors in both these cases point out, and with a lot of merit, to what is hidden behind these averages, viz, an inconsistency that is totally unacceptable from top notch players.I think consistency of performance over long periods of time really show the good from the great and the all time great.

So, I decided to check the stats of these two West Indian greats on this attribute. I tel you a shock of huge [proportions awaited me.

Lara and Ambrose have played 98 and 116 matches (Lara todate0. I decided to track their cumulative average over their careers. It is obvious that in the early part of their careers, the fluctuations would be more, in either direction, since the smal number of innings can easily skew the average with one great innings or a few very bad ones.

So I decided to leave out the first 30 test matches. It tok away the realy turbulent period of Lara when his averaged had diped to as low as 22.0 And I believe in being very fair in in my choice of stats.

Now, I took the average of both players at the end of the 30th test, I took the average at the end of the entire period under consideration and I took the highs and the lows in between.

Taking the starting average as 0.00, I then compared it to the high, the low and the final. Thus the figures for the high, low and end averages indicate the deviation from the starting point. Here are the results.

PLAYER......START......HIGH........LOW.....END
Lara...............0.00.........-2.41........- 11.18...- 4.66
Ambrose .......0.00.....+ 0.15........- 1.76......- 0.65

I have always known Ambrose to be an extremely consistent batsman but I must admit that even I was extremely impressed by these remarkable testimonies of this remarkable batsman !!

Conclusion : Ambrose was one of the most consistent batsmen in the history of the game with his cumulative average over the last 68 tests of his career moving in a band of less than 2 runs per innings !!! For Lara the fluctuation is SIX times as much. Futhermore Lara continuously declined after his first 30 test matches while Ambrose touched greeater heights on more than a dozen occasions !!

The gap between Ambrose's highest and lowest ever test innings was only 53 runs ! For Lara the gap is a shocking 400 runs. Lara , on this parameter, is the worlds most inconsistent batsman. No other batsman in the history of the game has such a HUGE gap betwen his best and his worst !!

Price on his wicket

There is always a lot of discussion on how the really great batsmen put a high price on their wickets and refuse to surrender their wickets to bowlers, howsoever great. Now how does one measure this characterstic. It is quite simple really and this is what we found.

Ambrose simply refused to give up his wicket and actually managed to thwart the efforts of the finest bowlers in the world on as many as 29 occasions in his 98 tests.

Lara, who played 18 tests more and arguably against declining world bowling standards, refused to yield his wicket to bowlers only 6 times in 116 tests. Shameful I would say.

Conclusion : Ambrose was a fighter who put a great value to his wicket and was successful once every 3.37 tests whil for Lara this figure was a deplorable once every 19.3 tests !!

Minnow basher Lara

Throughoput his career Ambrose reserved his best performances against the best sides. So much so that when it became clear that a very weak Bangladesh were on the verge of gaining test selection, this gallant batsman refuse to participate in such non-contests and promptly retired from the game. We all know that Lara's has a massive test average against Bangladesh.

Even against Zimbabwe, which we took for comparison since both these batsmen played against this team, he has averages higher than against sides like India, Pakistan, New zealand, Australia, South Africa.

Ambrose on the other hand, has his lowest average against Zimbabwe !! He averages more against all other test playing countries. . He averaged 100 % more against South Africa and Australia than he did against Zimbabwe, 160 % more against England, over 340% better against India and New Zealand and a whopping 480 % more against sri Lanka !!!


Conclusion : Like all great sportsmen, Ambrose was at his sublime best against the best sides in the world and refused to waste his talents and lost interest when facing weak opposition.

And all this when he had to shore up the innings in the company of tailenders most of the time and besides being the teams star bowler as well !!

We dont want to insult the intelligence of our clientele by writing down the final conclusion. Its so obvious !!
Absolutely brilliant.
 

andyc

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
could you please prove that the current west indies team is in fact superior to the so called 'world champions' of the 80's?
 

Son Of Coco

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
honestbharani said:
SJS and Vic, take a bow. Those stats prove exactly what I have said all along....


Ambrose > Lara
McGrath > Ponting
Bashar > Ponting
Bangladesh >Australia.


Long live SJS, Long live the SJS Stats Factory. :)
Actually, it was proven that McGrath > Gilchrist...however due to the fact that it was also proven that he's one of the greatest batsmen to ever live your claims re: Ponting are justified. These stats are copyrighted however, so we'd like you to apply in writing for permisson before twisting them to suit a particular case. After a one-off processing fee + an ongoing usage payment you'll be able to use the stat free of charge for the rest of your natural life.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Son Of Coco said:
Actually, it was proven that McGrath > Gilchrist...however due to the fact that it was also proven that he's one of the greatest batsmen to ever live your claims re: Ponting are justified. These stats are copyrighted however, so we'd like you to apply in writing for permisson before twisting them to suit a particular case. After a one-off processing fee + an ongoing usage payment you'll be able to use the stat free of charge for the rest of your natural life.
OOPS. Sorry. :(. I will pay the damages. :)
 

andyc

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
honestbharani said:
I couldn't believe that this thread was down in the second page. :-O
yeah! sjs, son of coco, vic, im still waiting for my proof about the windies
 

vic_orthdox

Global Moderator
Alright, what about we break this down. I'm happy to take player vs player analysis, what about someone else does an evaluation of team stats (hint hint, SJS, who has been the guru of this aspect in his works so far). If anyone else can think of another form of comparing, feel free to tell us about it, or alternatively post your findings.

Andyc, are we just talking about test match cricket? I would like a direct year comparison, when do the majority think that the West Indies were at their strongest?

This could be the most detailed, and somewhat difficult, to prove thus far, methinks. Could be the pinnacle of our works to this junction.
 
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SJS

Hall of Fame Member
vic_orthdox said:
Alright, what about we break this down. I'm happy to take player vs player analysis, what about someone else does an evaluation of team stats.

Andyc, are we just talking about test match cricket? I would like a direct year comparison, when do the majority think that the West Indies were at their strongest.

This could be the most detailed, and somewhat difficult, to prove thus far, methinks. Could be the pinnacle of our works to this point.
I have been very busy.

Am leaving for Milan for a meeting tonight. Wont be back from Europe for another 8 days.

Thanks for holding fort boys !! :)
 

andyc

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
i was really talking about test matches, but one dayers too if you're up for it.
 

vic_orthdox

Global Moderator
No, test matches will make it harder to prove.

Oh well, SJS, have a wonderful trip to Milan. I have decided to compare the team of the 1st Test of the series vs Pakistan in '05, versus the team of the 1st Test of the series vs India in 1982/83. For the record, the 1982/83 side was...

Haynes
Greenidge
Richards
Gomes
Logie
Lloyd*
Dujon+
Marshall
Roberts
Holding
Garner

Seems like a formidable enough line up for me...pity it pales into insignificance when compared with the current outfit.
 

Son Of Coco

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Sorry guys, but I'm down in Falls Creek right now and only have access to the net about once a week. My role as Stats Adviser is in serious doubt, and I'll understand if I am banished to the position of 6th decimal point and thus never heard of again as we always round to the nearest two. Hopefully, in around 3 months, I'll be able to have some input on a regular basis again - I am fully aware that another statistically minded person could come along in that time though and take over for good. As they say in the classics, if you love stats, you have to set them free....and if they return to you then a+b+(cxd) = t, r, u, e, l , o , v , or e (again).
 

vic_orthdox

Global Moderator
I have one more exam tomorrow, and then I'll get to work on the Windies - 80s vs NOW.

And unemployment on CricketWeb has just risen by 10%. :dry:
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Vic, SoC,

I am sorely disappointed at your abdication of duty :mad: :mad:

*Goes of ranting to the conference room*
 

vic_orthdox

Global Moderator
Argh. I just had this crazy dream, where SJS comes back from the dead (CW-wise :p ) and tells me off for being inherently slack, and letting down the team, and then I start sulking in my chair and feeling disconsolate. Thank God it was just a dream...

Sincere apologies, situation to be rectified in the near future.
 

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