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Thread: Black Caps generic thread

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    Black Caps generic thread

    as the Black Caps' season & international series have been completed, just thought I'd start this thread as a forum for continued discussion as there is obviously a lot to debate regarding the team..............

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    for me the 1st question that needs to be asked is:

    should the side continue with a 6-4 split as forced upon them this season with the injury to Oram, or;

    should they revert to a 5-5 split when all players are available.................

    or is this question / decision solely based upon Oram's availability & role as a recognised 'allrounder'????? and if so - should he be considered as such and with which emphasis - a bowling or batting 'allorunder'??????
    Last edited by anzac; 19-04-2005 at 08:23 AM.

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    Global Moderator Prince EWS's Avatar
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    With the players at your disposal, batting Oram at 7 and McCullum at eight makes more sence.

    You have a number of batsmen vying for spots, but the bowling cupboard is very bare ATM.
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    Global Moderator vic_orthdox's Avatar
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    depends on the wicket i guess. i'm not sure from what i saw whether the NZers have enough quality pace bowlers to sustain a 5-5. maybe when a second spinner is required chuck wiseman in as well.


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    there are some members who feel that because the cupboard is relatively bare then we should have a 5-5 split so as to have a better chance to take 20 wickets, with Oram as part of a 4 man seam attack................

    my arguement is - is he a bowler who bats or a batsman who bowls????
    for example in ENG we had a 5-5 split & Oram probably bowled more overs than any other seam bowler in the side - including C Martin & Franklin.............
    then in AUS (post Cairns) we used a 6-4 split in the 1st Test & 5-5 in the 2nd, and in both he was the 2nd most bowled seamer.........
    for mind that is too much of a workload for an 'allrounder' and is that of a specialist bowler........so if this is likely to continue then IMO he is selected as a bowler & does not bat above McCullum.............

    the next consideration is - is he good enough to be selected as a batsman who bowls, as per Astle & Styris????

    and finally - if Bond is available do we still need a 5-5 split as such??????

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    IMO the debate that "because your bowling is weak you must select more bowlers" is redundant or akin to putting the cart b4 the horse.............IMO you must strengthen your batting and persure the 'advance the game' theory so as to have enough runs & time to compensate for your bowling...........

    and you do not attempt to do this with a 5-5 split, and furthermore your batting lineup balance is crucial...............IMO until now NZL has not had the right pool of players to do this...........and still not in the current squad...........

  7. #7
    Global Moderator Prince EWS's Avatar
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    If your bowling is weak, selecting 5 bowlers wont help.

    If your best 4 bowlers are getting hammered, how does anyone expect that selecting another, even poorer bowler will improve things? Astle has been doing a fine 5th bowler's role of late as well, come to think of it...

    Play to your strength, which is your batting. Work on trying to advance games with your batting, and hope you can put pressure on with big scores.

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    Hall of Fame Member chaminda_00's Avatar
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    It all depends on who is avaiable really, as you said with Bond in the side you can play a easierly play a 6-4 split. Looking at the top players in NZ:

    J Marshall
    H Marshall
    S Fleming
    N Astle
    S Styris
    L Vincent
    B McCullum
    J Oram
    D Vettori
    S Bond
    J Franklin
    C Martin

    These are the players that i belive could probably get up to England and India in Test Cricket. Out of those 12 players the two worst IMO are Franklin and Martin so at full strength i would go for a 6-4 split. Even with Bond not in the side i would still go for a 6-4 split as a 5-5 split means you need to bring in an extra bowler. Tuffey might be best option but i don't think he is any better then any of the batsmen. 6-4 split is the way to go in IMO.

    The big problem is opening the batting, do you keep Cumming, bring in How, throw McCullum up there, push one of the middle order batsmen up there or even put Vettori up there. The last one is the one i like
    Last edited by chaminda_00; 19-04-2005 at 08:57 AM.
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    my preference is for a 6-4 split to start with..

    currently my team would be as follows:
    Fleming
    Marshall J
    Marshall H
    Astle / Styris
    Oram
    Vincent
    McCullum
    Vettori
    Franklin
    Bond
    C Martin

    Oram would play as a specialist batsman & share the 5th bowling role with Astle / Styris - much as Kallis does for RSA.............but as soon as he bowls anything like the same number of overs as the 3rd seamer, then I'd drop that bowler for Oram and bring in another batsman...........

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    I'd not use Vettori to open - IMO he is too valuable to the batting performance of the lower order simply because although he is aggressive, he has also been performing the role of putting together partnerships as has Hamish & Vincent.........and with a 6-4 split he has a better chance of batting in partnership with a recognised batsman - NZL would then have a genuine batting depth 2nd to no one - despite recent efforts from Gillespie & McGrath..........

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    my main concern is that currently the innings does not accelerate until Fleming at #4, or until the likes of The Twins & Vincent have spent some time at the crease.............

    my 2nd concern is that there should be a moderate style batsman at #6 to perform another anchoring role & break up the potentially brittle sequence of Styris/Astle, Oram, McCullum & Vettori...........in this lineup those players would be the likes of The Twins or Vincent..............

    IMO Fleming, The Twins, Vincent & McCullum can bat in the top order, but I'd not use Astle, Styris or Oram above #4..........

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    and in case it wasn't already obvious - Astle, Styris & Oram would be in competition for 2 spots in the lineup if Oram were to play as a specialist batsman...............particularly because of roles to be played & to break up that middle order run - again..........

    and Astle only gets to start ahead of Styris because of this past series..............

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    a seemingly radical option could be as follows & as already suggested elsewhere in parts.....

    The Twins, McCullum, Fleming, Astle/Styris, Vincent, Oram, Vettori, Franklin..............

  14. #14
    State Vice-Captain Sir Redman's Avatar
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    We could go for a very batting heavy lineup and rely on Styris, Astle and Vincent for the extra seam options.

    J Marshall
    Cumming
    H Marshall
    Fleming
    Astle
    Vincent
    Styris
    Oram
    McCullum
    Vettori
    Bond

    I don't really like the thought of just two specialist bowlers in Bond and Vettori (yes I know he scores a few but his primary role is as a bowler) so I would probably drop one of the openers to allow Franklin/Martin in.

    J Marshall/Cumming
    Fleming
    H Marshall
    Vincent
    Astle
    Styris
    Oram
    McCullum
    Vettori
    Bond
    Martin/Franklin

    Hmm this is harder than I thought. I would much rather Fleming batted at 4 but that means dropping one of Astle, Styris and Vincent. Out of these 3 I would probably drop Styris due to his lack of form in his last series + lack of match practice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Redman
    We could go for a very batting heavy lineup and rely on Styris, Astle and Vincent for the extra seam options.

    Hmm this is harder than I thought. I would much rather Fleming batted at 4 but that means dropping one of Astle, Styris and Vincent. Out of these 3 I would probably drop Styris due to his lack of form in his last series + lack of match practice.
    IMO if we took the 1st option we would be falling into the same trap of not enough specialist bowlers to do the job - sure they'd get big totals, but did not have the skills to do anything with it................furthermore it is possible that both Bond & Vettori are both prone to injury with big workloads..............

    likewise I wanted to try to keep Fleming in the middle order & maintain the balance between the aggressive players & those that could build the innings...........and avoid a lineup that exposed a consecutive run of Astle, Styris, Oram etc...............so hence the radical lineup in my last....................

    at least the top 3 in The Twins & McCullum have played domestic cricket as openers - although their domestic records are nothing to rave about.............

    admittedly Vincent would seem the better option to open with, but IMO his doggedness shown in those 2 consecutive 2nd innings v AUS & SRL has tipped the scales in favour of his remaining at #6.................along with the potential of his batting with Oram & Vettori..........as per his exploits with the lower order & tail in the 2nd Test v SRL..........

    likewise there will be plenty of debate re moving Hamish from where he has been so successful of late - but it's a case of what appears to be best for the team as a whole.........and while the Twins may not set the innings alight at the top, I am confident that they'd achieve the primary goal of seeing off the opening attack with the new ball more often than not...........

    if McCullum can contain himself somewhat in his 1st 5-10 overs, then under the circumstances I quite like the balance in the order.................

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