Black Caps generic thread

[shaka]

ND have been a huge producer of black cap bowler over recent years, even more than Auckland.

 

[lord_of_darkness]

Martin Crowe should have got a look in IMO

Imo thats when you know the word is nearin an end..

 

[Natman20]

Good work flemming on scoring 62 and leading the mcc side to win over international XI

 

[Macka]

The ideal one-day side for my money would be:
1 Fleming
2 Astle
3 H Marshall
4 Styris
5 McMillan
6 Cairns
7 Oram
8 McCullum
9 Vettori
10 Tuffey
11 Bond

Tests
1 Cumming
2 J Marshall
3 Fleming
4 H Marshall
5 Styris
6 Vincent
7 Oram
8 McCullum
9 Vettori
10 Franklin/ Martin
11 Bond

Agreement/ disagreement?

I mostly agree with both squads. However, I'd have Hamish Marshall at 3 for Tests and Fleming at 4. I'm still not too sure about the openers, but I guess they both need to be given a decent chance. I think I'd rather see Papps open, but he has been in bad form opening in 4-day games for Canterbury the past season.

I'm still not too sure about the top-order for ODIs. The only problem I have with Hamish Marshall at 3 is that if Astle or Fleming get out early, Marshall isn't really going to take full advantage of the first 15 overs. In saying that, I'm not sure who else I would have at 3, but I think Hamish Marshall would be ideal for batting at 4. If Styris gets a bit of form behind him, then maybe he could move to 3. Oram and McCullum might be in with a chance because we just have too many middle-order players.

 

[Macka]

Another thing I've been thinking about l lately: should Fleming continue on as captain? Is it time the Black Caps moved on and gave someone else a go? By now we know what Fleming offers and, if he hasn't given everything he has to offer by now, then I doubt he never will. England have tasted a lot of success since Michael Vaughan took over the captaincy; perhaps it's time for New Zealand to look at what other players - such as Vettori and Oram - have to offer the team as captain.

New Zealand have never been able to be consistant at both ODIs and Tests simultaneously. Although we do not have the talent a lot of other countries do, we have managed success in both forms of the game in the recent past. This shows the attitude and commitment was once there, but, for whatever reason, the team hasn't been able to be consistantly successful. Arguably, Fleming's captaincy has dropped off since the 2001-02 tour of Australia - where he was at his best. Since then, Fleming's tactical game has been missing and his batting, while having improved, is still indfferent and inconsistant.

So without going on and on, the point is: would New Zealand be better off giving a new bloke a chance? As a result, maybe Fleming's batting would improve without the extra worry of being captain.

 

[AndrewM]

Another thing I've been thinking about l lately: should Fleming continue on as captain? Is it time the Black Caps moved on and gave someone else a go? By now we know what Fleming offers and, if he hasn't given everything he has to offer by now, then I doubt he never will. England have tasted a lot of success since Michael Vaughan took over the captaincy; perhaps it's time for New Zealand to look at what other players - such as Vettori and Oram - have to offer the team as captain.

New Zealand have never been able to be consistant at both ODIs and Tests simultaneously. Although we do not have the talent a lot of other countries do, we have managed success in both forms of the game in the recent past. This shows the attitude and commitment was once there, but, for whatever reason, the team hasn't been able to be consistantly successful. Arguably, Fleming's captaincy has dropped off since the 2001-02 tour of Australia - where he was at his best. Since then, Fleming's tactical game has been missing and his batting, while having improved, is still indfferent and inconsistant.

So without going on and on, the point is: would New Zealand be better off giving a new bloke a chance? As a result, maybe Fleming's batting would improve without the extra worry of being captain.

Vettori or Oram are the choices, both reasonably young (mid 20's) while Fleming is 32. Maybe leave Fleming as test captain and give Vettori or Oram a go in the one-day arena?

 

[Kippax]

Another thing I've been thinking about l lately: should Fleming continue on as captain? Is it time the Black Caps moved on and gave someone else a go? By now we know what Fleming offers and, if he hasn't given everything he has to offer by now, then I doubt he never will. England have tasted a lot of success since Michael Vaughan took over the captaincy; perhaps it's time for New Zealand to look at what other players - such as Vettori and Oram - have to offer the team as captain.

I think the main problem with that is there's no-one who actually wants it until 2007, where I see Chris Cairns has suggested Fleming will retire and Vettori will take over. Most of the BCs speak almost in awe of Fleming, either on the record or off it.

Overall I don't think Fleming's done too a bad job - he seems a bit jaded and vulnerable to me at times, but I think most of the current international captains would be far greater wrecks if you stuck them with the talents of Kyle Mills and Daryl Tuffey for a year or two and said "here - beat the world".

On a more level playing field he seems to be getting glowing reports at Notts, both for his batting and leadership, that have helped turn a newly-promoted side into a title threat. I think what Fleming needs is a similar breath of fresh air as NZ captain, hopefully starting with a fit Shane Bond.

 

[Arjun]

As far as bowling is concerned, they're not going to win too many if they persist with home-turf heroes Tuffey and Mills and especially Jeff Wilson. But would you continue with Hamilton after what you have seen? An attack of Cairns, Bond, Oram, Styris and Vettori can't be bad, can it?

 

[Macka]

I think the main problem with that is there's no-one who actually wants it until 2007, where I see Chris Cairns has suggested Fleming will retire and Vettori will take over. Most of the BCs speak almost in awe of Fleming, either on the record or off it.

Overall I don't think Fleming's done too a bad job - he seems a bit jaded and vulnerable to me at times, but I think most of the current international captains would be far greater wrecks if you stuck them with the talents of Kyle Mills and Daryl Tuffey for a year or two and said "here - beat the world".

On a more level playing field he seems to be getting glowing reports at Notts, both for his batting and leadership, that have helped turn a newly-promoted side into a title threat. I think what Fleming needs is a similar breath of fresh air as NZ captain, hopefully starting with a fit Shane Bond.

I agree that most of the players do speak - publically, at least - very highly of Fleming and what he has done. What does surprise me, though, is that no one in the media has asked if Fleming's time is up. Even when Vettori captained the side against Bangladesh.

Don't get me wrong, I think Fleming has done a decent enough job with the resources avaliable to him, but I really do think he has given all he has to offer. As a fielding captain, he is very accomplished; however, as a batsman-captain he has not won many games with his bat - especially Test matches. I believe that a captain should lead the way.

I think the players are there to really push for further success internationally, but I think a fresh outlook may be required.

 

[Tim]

Maybe for ODI's, NZ should give the Captaincy to Vettori while he still has the support of Fleming on the field.
I mean, Vettori obviously wouldn't want to be running to Fleming every 5 minutes but a bit of advice here & there would be ok.

 

[Macka]

As far as bowling is concerned, they're not going to win too many if they persist with home-turf heroes Tuffey and Mills and especially Jeff Wilson. But would you continue with Hamilton after what you have seen? An attack of Cairns, Bond, Oram, Styris and Vettori can't be bad, can it?

I think Bond and Oram opening the bowling with Styris, Cairns, Vettori, and Astle bowling through the middle stages isn't half bad. Cairns, with his experience, has bowled quite well through the middle overs of late, and an in-form Vettori can slow scoring.

I think picking Hamilton was a bit of desperation. I don't rate him at all. You're right on to it regarding Tuffey; he's pretty average away from home.

 

[Tim]

We've still got Butler too, although im not sure what his intentions are. I believe on radio sport that he said his #1 goal is to play for NZ so I suppose he'll be back for N.D next season.

Chris Martin moving to Auckland means that the door is now open for either Richard Sherlock or Leighton Burtt to break into the Canterbury side.

 

[Blakey]

Who is Burtt?

I thought Sherlock was injured and most likely will be for a long time by the sounds of it. Typical tall fast bowlers injury.

How is Davis coming along

 

[Macka]

Squads named to tour Zimbabwe in August:

Tests: Stephen Fleming (captain) Daniel Vettori (vice-captain) Nathan Astle, Shane Bond, Craig Cumming, James Franklin, Hamish Marshall, James Marshall, Chris Martin, Brendon McCullum, Kyle Mills, Jacob Oram, Scott Styris, Lou Vincent, Paul Wiseman.

ODIs: Stephen Fleming (captain), Daniel Vettori (vice-captain), Andre Adams, Nathan Astle, Shane Bond, Chris Cairns, Hamish Marshall, Brendon McCullum, Craig McMillan, Jacob Oram, Kyle Mills, Jeetan Patel, Scott Styris, Lou Vincent.

 

[Will Scarlet]

NZ selectors bugger off!!!

Yet another wasted opportunity to blood new players against a poor opposition - just like the BAN tour last year. And I'm talking about both the test and ODI sides. It appears that nothing has changed in the selection policies, despite the change of selectors. Not surprising though, Nash was only a half-decent player for NZ!

What is the point of playing full strength team to ZIM? We'd thrash them with a third-string team. Where are Fulton & Papps? Why is Adams not given another run in the test team on this dud tour? His bowling is better that Mill's.

 

[Macka]

Yet another wasted opportunity to blood new players against a poor opposition - just like the BAN tour last year. And I'm talking about both the test and ODI sides. It appears that nothing has changed in the selection policies, despite the change of selectors. Not surprising though, Nash was only a half-decent player for NZ!

What is the point of playing full strength team to ZIM? We'd thrash them with a third-string team. Where are Fulton & Papps? Why is Adams not given another run in the test team on this dud tour? His bowling is better that Mill's.

Couldn't agree more. Adams and Fulton sure have a lot of potential. At least the selectors are looking at developing James Marshall and Craig Cumming at the top of the order. Wrong players, right idea.

I'm a bit surprised Vincent made the ODI squad. He missed most of last season's domestic one-day games and hasn't really found his place in the one-day game.

 

[bradman2005]

Couldn't agree more. Adams and Fulton sure have a lot of potential. At least the selectors are looking at developing James Marshall and Craig Cumming at the top of the order. Wrong players, right idea

a.I'm a bit surprised Vincent made the ODI squad. He missed most of last season's domestic one-day games and hasn't really found his place in the one-day game.

Um i dont think that they are the wrong players,well i think that they are the right players
the nz selectors have stuffed around with test match openers to much in the past i would like to see Cumming and J Marshall given a decent go so we can establish some consistancy at the top of the order

I think Cumming is in the mould of Richardson
and Marshall looks like a potentialy dynamic player so they are good selection

 

[Smudge]

Why do we want to "blood new players''? We struggle enough to get a settled combination on the field for three consecutive games. Get the strongest team on the pitch and be done with it. I think this a rebuilding tour with the resources they've already got and players like Oram and Bond returning...

 

[Blaze]

Why do we want to "blood new players''? We struggle enough to get a settled combination on the field for three consecutive games. Get the strongest team on the pitch and be done with it. I think this a rebuilding tour with the resources they've already got and players like Oram and Bond returning...

Yeah I agree

 

[Smudge]

Yeah I agree

I talk a lot of sense.