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county cricket underated?

wpdavid

Hall of Fame Member
kendall said:
England have their best side for years, i think plenty of good players are coming through. and how many quality atacks are their in world cricket at the moment?
On all surfaces, only Aus. In their own backyards, India & SL. And that's my point, hence my relatively sober assessments of Strauss, Tresco & Vaughan. I agree that we have some reasonable cricketers coming through, but I'm not convinced they're better than the 90's generation who had to establish themselves in test cricket against much better attacks.

Going back to your original question about the quality of the CC, I worry about standards when I look at some of the sides who have done well in it. Take last year's winners, for instance. Fine batting lineup, but their bowlers shouldn't trouble anyone worth their salt. At best, they should be drawing every game, but they won enough to win Div 1 by a mile. Then look at my lot, Surrey. Forget about the title wins a few years previously: they were in a right mess last year, but they still finished third, IIRC. I know that my side was poor, so what does that tell us about all the sides that finished below them?
 

wpdavid

Hall of Fame Member
Richard said:
No, I refer to the fact that his (Tresco's) first-chance average after 25 Tests was 28; his scorebook-average after 26 was 43. He'd not have lasted 5 matches, probably, if he'd been caught when he offered chances in his early Tests.
Oh right - I'll have to take your word for that.

Apart from the attacks & pitches Tresco's encountered, the other area he's been lucky is in playing at the time when England's selection has been at its most consistent and most patient, pretty much ever. It's not hard to see previous regimes ditching him after last winter's tours to SL & WI, or even before the end of the 2003 SA series given his additional failure in Aus the previous winter.

Not that I'm arguing that he should have been dropped, before anyone jumps on me from a great height. His contributions since the WI tour have obviously vindicated the selectors' decision. One of his great assets is that when he gets in he often makes it count - compared to Butcher, who probably fails less often but rarely goes on to produce a big one. And it's hardly Tresco's fault that some of his best innings (Galle & Old Trafford in 2001 spring immediately to mind) came in a losing cause.
 

kendall

U19 Vice-Captain
wpdavid said:
On all surfaces, only Aus. In their own backyards, India & SL. And that's my point, hence my relatively sober assessments of Strauss, Tresco & Vaughan. I agree that we have some reasonable cricketers coming through, but I'm not convinced they're better than the 90's generation who had to establish themselves in test cricket against much better attacks.

QUOTE]

I think you are being a bit harsh on England i think they are now a world class side and now have a winnig mentality as seen in south africa
 

wpdavid

Hall of Fame Member
kendall said:
wpdavid said:
On all surfaces, only Aus. In their own backyards, India & SL. And that's my point, hence my relatively sober assessments of Strauss, Tresco & Vaughan. I agree that we have some reasonable cricketers coming through, but I'm not convinced they're better than the 90's generation who had to establish themselves in test cricket against much better attacks.

QUOTE]

I think you are being a bit harsh on England i think they are now a world class side and now have a winnig mentality as seen in south africa
Agreed that their mentality is excellent, which I think has been a big factor in the extent of their success over the past 12 months. I also think it owes a lot to Vaughan's captaincy.
World class? I don't know about that just yet, but if they prove me wrong this summer I'll be delighted.
 

psxpro

Banned
County cricket is overrated. just look at how successful an average batsman like spearman has been, at test or odi level he has no idea, yet at county cricket he is a superstar.
 

kendall

U19 Vice-Captain
psxpro said:
County cricket is overrated. just look at how successful an average batsman like spearman has been, at test or odi level he has no idea, yet at county cricket he is a superstar.
and look at how sucessful strauss has been so far. you can never be sure if a player will be successful or not when they make the step up but county cricket is very important in bringing players through and i think is thougher than many people think
 

Neil Pickup

Cricket Web Moderator
psxpro said:
County cricket is overrated. just look at how successful an average batsman like spearman has been, at test or odi level he has no idea, yet at county cricket he is a superstar.
And look at how average (at best) "superstars" like Clarke and Tait were last time around...
 

psxpro

Banned
YEa then the crappy nz domestic cricket must be good too, look at hamish marshall, he cant play there yet he averaged over 40 vs Aus and looked very good
 

Mr Mxyzptlk

Request Your Custom Title Now!
marc71178 said:
Actually, he's far from a superstar in County Cricket.
Well he has scored 10 of his 21 FC hundreds in 49 CC games and the other 11 outside of County Cricket in some 100 games. The stats are pretty impressive.
 

FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
Neil Pickup said:
And look at how average (at best) "superstars" like Clarke and Tait were last time around...
Didn't Tait bowl a total of about 10 overs in his entire stay with Duhram? His accuracy and control with regard to no-balls and wides has improved massively in the last year, along with his general ability as a bowler. It will be interesting to see how he goes this time if he plays in England again.

Clarke won't of course, since Cricket Australia has prohibited any player aside from Lee to play in the counties before the Ashes.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Mr Mxyzptlk said:
Well he has scored 10 of his 21 FC hundreds in 49 CC games and the other 11 outside of County Cricket in some 100 games. The stats are pretty impressive.
Yes, the numbers may be good, but he's never talked about as a superstar or anything like that over here.
 

psxpro

Banned
Yea spearman is a successful county cricket, he is a no hoper at test level and even in the nz dowmstic comps
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Although standards have declined a lot in the last ten years county cricket is still far better than the domestic cricket in India and Pakistan at least.

Probably, though one doesnt know for sure, better than West Indies and Sri Lanka too.So that leaves Australia, which is very good and New Zealand which I understand is very competitive indeed and South Africa which one doesnt know much about but used to be very good ten years ago.

No I dont think it is over rated OR under rated. I would like to believe that being highly successful as a batsman in the county circuit would mean a very high degree of skill.
 

Mr Mxyzptlk

Request Your Custom Title Now!
psxpro said:
Yea spearman is a successful county cricket, he is a no hoper at test level and even in the nz dowmstic comps
To be fair, he did have a pretty successful career for Central Districts.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
psxpro said:
Yea spearman is a successful county cricket, he is a no hoper at test level and even in the nz dowmstic comps
There's a huge difference between being successful and a superstar.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
wpdavid said:
Oh right - I'll have to take your word for that.

Apart from the attacks & pitches Tresco's encountered, the other area he's been lucky is in playing at the time when England's selection has been at its most consistent and most patient, pretty much ever. It's not hard to see previous regimes ditching him after last winter's tours to SL & WI, or even before the end of the 2003 SA series given his additional failure in Aus the previous winter.

Not that I'm arguing that he should have been dropped, before anyone jumps on me from a great height. His contributions since the WI tour have obviously vindicated the selectors' decision. One of his great assets is that when he gets in he often makes it count - compared to Butcher, who probably fails less often but rarely goes on to produce a big one. And it's hardly Tresco's fault that some of his best innings (Galle & Old Trafford in 2001 spring immediately to mind) came in a losing cause.
If you ask me let-offs are far, far more significant than any luck with attacks, pitches and selectors; they're all inquantifiable things, whereas we can say exactly and with total and absolute certainty about the average.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
wpdavid said:
On all surfaces, only Aus. In their own backyards, India & SL. And that's my point, hence my relatively sober assessments of Strauss, Tresco & Vaughan. I agree that we have some reasonable cricketers coming through, but I'm not convinced they're better than the 90's generation who had to establish themselves in test cricket against much better attacks.
Vaughan has at least scored some runs in Sri Lanka and Australia, albeit as an opener.
Strauss, while he's not faced particularly challenging bowling, has still scored with astonishing weight and has thus far done more than could possibly be expected of him. If you're going to be a flat-track bully, one averaging 60 is still a fair achievement.
Going back to your original question about the quality of the CC, I worry about standards when I look at some of the sides who have done well in it. Take last year's winners, for instance. Fine batting lineup, but their bowlers shouldn't trouble anyone worth their salt.
And... funnily enough, they didn't:
HH Streak 24 21.75 39.7 3.28
IR Bell 14 28.57 59.0 2.90
IJL Trott 3 28.66 46.0 3.73
N Tahir 26 29.46 44.9 3.93
AF Giles 4 32.00 93.0 2.06
DR Brown 38 33.50 65.1 3.08
D Pretorius 24 39.00 61.2 3.82
NM Carter 27 44.03 77.7 3.40
MA Wagh 18 54.27 93.8 3.46
GB Hogg 14 62.92 109.8 3.43
A Richardson 6 88.66 144.0 3.69
JO Troughton 3 114.66 246.0 2.79
Aside from Streak, the only ones who averaged much under 30 were part-timers. Even Giles and Pretorious, both internationals (and Hogg, too, even if it was a wholly strange selection), couldn't really crack it.
The real problem with the current Championship is that there are 5 batting bonus-points on offer to 3 bowling ones. This, inevitably, has lead to a plethora of pancake wickets and copious massive totals. Wickets at present help batsmen far too much and don't offer enough to the seamers. It's not helped by the fact that most of the seamers are far too wayward (as demonstrated by the tiny number of bowlers consistently going for near 4-an-over in the one-day game and under 3-an-over in the 4-day one, compared to a few years ago.
Some people don't like the bonus-point system at all; Wisden applied the Championship tables 2000-2003 with bonus-points deducted, and all 4 seasons the winners, promotions and relegations would have been the same. So it doesn't often affect the standings; I personally would tweak it and cut-out the 100-over-cut-off mark to try to curb the alarming number of 550-off-130-overs we've seen so often recently. I'd also have it as 4 for each: 150, 200, 250, 300; 3 wickets, 5 wickets, 7 wickets, 9 wickets, 10 wickets.
But the bonus-points in themselves can't explain all the problems.
 

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