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Dravid goes to number 1 in test ratings

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
FaaipDeOiad said:
I think your main problem in assessing McGrath's wickets is that you have no respect for consistent accuracy and subtle planning. As you pointed out, McGrath VERY often gets wickets by making a batsman play at a ball that wouldn't have hit the stumps. This is not however anything to do with luck, it is to do with the fact that batsman get into a negative frame of mind against him. When this happens, they seek to leave everything outside off stump and block anything straight, and McGrath is free to adjust his line, length, pace and movement at will to force an error from the batsman. When this happens it doesn't mean he is lucky, it means he has comprehensively outplayed the batsman by firstly being accurate enough to force them into their shell and then good enough to force an error from a batsman intent on survival.
No-one can force an error of any sort, it's not possible. The only person who can make the error is the batsman, not because he's been fooled by a change of pace or length, but because he's got something wrong.
That he's got something wrong, and that 4 batsmen have got something wrong in the same innings, reflects nothing on the skill of the bowler.
An example involving other bowlers is yesterdays Indian collapse. Once the Indian batsmen retreated into a purely defensive mindset in order to play out the remaining overs they were doomed to eventually be worked out by the bowlers. The fact that the wickets fell with balls that might not always have got them has nothing to do with luck.'
Not on the batsmen's part, no, but on the bowlers it's nothing else.
For one thing, it wasn't the bowlers that forced the batsmen into their shell.
It's so completely daft to claim that something that happens OVER and OVER and OVER again is because of luck. Why the hell does McGrath get all this luck and nobody else does?
Because there are anomalies in all trends. McGrath isn't the only one, Pollock is exactly the same; Flintoff has had similar experiences since the Sri Lanka tour (though he didn't before); and there are plenty of others who get similar situations over short periods. For most, though, it's short-lived, and things even themselves up so that the figures accurately reflect matters.
But how many times have we seen batsmen not get frustrated because of slow scoring-rates? Infinately more than we have seen them get frustrated.
 
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FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
Richard said:
Exactly, which is why McGrath is such a fantastic bowler when the ball is moving off the seam.
When it isn't, though, is when things change.
I have watched every McGrath test in recent memory, and I have never seen a pitch on which he did not get movement off the seam. Not once. Can you provide an example of a pitch where he has not got movement off the seam?
 

FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
Richard said:
No-one can force an error of any sort, it's not possible. The only person who can make the error is the batsman, not because he's been fooled by a change of pace or length, but because he's got something wrong.
That he's got something wrong, and that 4 batsmen have got something wrong in the same innings, reflects nothing on the skill of the bowler.
And what if he HAS been fooled by a change of pace, length or movement? It has been explained to you so many times now why when McGrath gets an edge from a ball outside off that would not have hit the stumps it is not simply a poor shot that I cannot believe that you still fail to understand it.

McGrath is the most consistently accurate seamer in the world. He bowls almost every single delivery in the right areas - you get very, very few gifts with McGrath. If he puts every ball in the corridor of uncertainty outside off stump on a length, batsmen are forced to play because of his ability to move the ball in. If they leave everything, he is capable of bringing one back off the wicket or in the air and hitting the off stump or the pad in front of it - this is why we see so many batsmen getting out shouldering arms to McGrath. Therefore, and this is the reason it is CALLED the corridor of uncertainty, the batsman is uncertain about which balls he can leave and which balls he can not, and therfore is forced to play at deliveries outside the off stump, which results in many of the edges we see so often from McGrath. Furthermore, a batsman needs to score - this is a basic fact of the game. McGrath is capable of bowling long, accurate spells and has a support cast of other accurate, economical bowlers. You cannot simply let him bowl maiden after maiden to you. Therefore, considering that McGrath does not often offer free scoring opportunities to the batsmen, if you wish to score you must play at balls that are in the same corridor - on a length outside off-stump. Again this creates a situation in which you may well edge the ball, given that the deliveries are on an awkward length and he is capable of moving the ball both ways off the seam or in the air. This is another cause for the many edges we see off McGrath.

The point is, these are NOT poor shots, they are batting errors (and every dismissal is a batting error, excluding run outs) forced by excellent, accurate and intelligent bowling. A poor shot is when you get a long-hop or a half-volley and hit it straight down the throat of a fielder, or when you go for a completely unnecessary waft at a wide ball that was never a threat. Putting your bat out when a ball is in the corridor of uncertainty because it is close to the stumps and could move back in to you is not poor batting, it is necessary. Plenty of batsmen don't do it as well, and they still get out. The ONLY way to be successful against McGrath is to be positive, and this is simply a fact. There is not one example of a batsmen succeeding against McGrath in recent times without being positive against him, taking your path and letting McGrath dictate terms to you by going on the defensive is NEVER successful. There are numerous examples in Sehwag, Vaughan, Tendulkar, Lara, Oram and so on where players have attacked McGrath and done far better against him.
 

social

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Richard said:
As for Dravid: in the 4-Test series he dismissed him twice, bowled by what sounds like a lovely off-cutter; and played at one he should have left, a dismissal we see so often with McGrath.
Richard,

the above dismissals represent why McGrath is such a great bowler.

Dravid, proclaimed by virtually everybody as the world's best player, was bowled twice on flat decks and then caught behind the wicket because he didnt know whether the ball was coming into him or not.

That represents 3 pieces of great bowling not 2.
 

social

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Richard said:
Exactly, which is why McGrath is such a fantastic bowler when the ball is moving off the seam.
When it isn't, though, is when things change.
How many seaming wickets has McGrath played on in his entire test career - 10 at the absolute most (more likely to be 5).

How then do you account for the other 450 test wickets?
 

social

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I was fortunate enough to sit behind the bowler's arm on the first day of the recent Gabba test vs NZ.

McGrath, whilst not at his best, got substantially more bounce out of the wicket than either Gillespie or Kasprowiscz. In addition, and contrary to what the speed-gun had to say, he appeared the quickest of the 3 and hurried all batsmen.

Add to this his subtle use of the crease and seam on what was a pretty flat wicket, and his display was indicative of why he is one of the greatest ever bowlers.
 

Hit4Six

U19 Debutant
Richard said:
No-one can force an error of any sort, it's not possible. The only person who can make the error is the batsman, not because he's been fooled by a change of pace or length, but because he's got something wrong.
That he's got something wrong, and that 4 batsmen have got something wrong in the same innings, reflects nothing on the skill of the bowler.

Not on the batsmen's part, no, but on the bowlers it's nothing else.
For one thing, it wasn't the bowlers that forced the batsmen into their shell.

Because there are anomalies in all trends. McGrath isn't the only one, Pollock is exactly the same; Flintoff has had similar experiences since the Sri Lanka tour (though he didn't before); and there are plenty of others who get similar situations over short periods. For most, though, it's short-lived, and things even themselves up so that the figures accurately reflect matters.
But how many times have we seen batsmen not get frustrated because of slow scoring-rates? Infinately more than we have seen them get frustrated.
pollock gets wickets
mcgrath gets wickets

they all win matches, so they get wickets and win matches consistently and are regarded as the best in their field

winning lottery = lucky

getting 499 wickets = skill
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
social said:
How many seaming wickets has McGrath played on in his entire test career - 10 at the absolute most (more likely to be 5).

How then do you account for the other 450 test wickets?

Luck, isn't it obvious?
 

Anil

Hall of Fame Member
Richard said:
It is not possible to force a poor stroke.
is an edge a poor stroke? yes it is considering that the batsman is not in control of the stroke, the ball mostly stays in the air enough for the keeper or slip to take it....is it possible for a bowler to induce an edge by bowling just short of good length on or just outside the off-stump? would that be considered good bowling?

is shouldering arms to an incoming ball a poor leave? is it possible for a bowler to induce that with his line and length? yes it is!

unless you say that good bowling and poor stroke-play are mutually exclusive you have to agree...

who bowls in that area most of the time? glenn mcgrath...

even you cannot be stupid enough to think that a bowler gets 500 wickets at a fantastic average mostly because of sheer luck and also maybe because all the international batsmen who faced him are morons???
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
social said:
How many seaming wickets has McGrath played on in his entire test career - 10 at the absolute most (more likely to be 5).

How then do you account for the other 450 test wickets?
How many seaming or uneven wickets has McGrath played on since 2001? The first 4 (Edgbaston, Lord's, Trent Bridge, Headingley) and maybe 1 or 2 since then.
How, then, do you account for the fact that between The Oval 2001 and The 'Gabba 2004\05 he rarely if ever bowled wicket-taking deliveries on flat pitches?
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
FaaipDeOiad said:
I have watched every McGrath test in recent memory, and I have never seen a pitch on which he did not get movement off the seam. Not once. Can you provide an example of a pitch where he has not got movement off the seam?
Can you provide me an example of a single pitch in history where not a single ball has moved off the seam? No.
But 20 or 30 deliveries out of the average 450 per day moving off the seam (which almost all Australia pitches have been since 2001) isn't going to make any bowler relying on seaming pitches dangerous (especially given that there are at least 3 other bowlers).
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
FaaipDeOiad said:
And what if he HAS been fooled by a change of pace, length or movement? It has been explained to you so many times now why when McGrath gets an edge from a ball outside off that would not have hit the stumps it is not simply a poor shot that I cannot believe that you still fail to understand it.

McGrath is the most consistently accurate seamer in the world. He bowls almost every single delivery in the right areas - you get very, very few gifts with McGrath. If he puts every ball in the corridor of uncertainty outside off stump on a length, batsmen are forced to play because of his ability to move the ball in. If they leave everything, he is capable of bringing one back off the wicket or in the air and hitting the off stump or the pad in front of it - this is why we see so many batsmen getting out shouldering arms to McGrath. Therefore, and this is the reason it is CALLED the corridor of uncertainty, the batsman is uncertain about which balls he can leave and which balls he can not, and therfore is forced to play at deliveries outside the off stump, which results in many of the edges we see so often from McGrath. Furthermore, a batsman needs to score - this is a basic fact of the game. McGrath is capable of bowling long, accurate spells and has a support cast of other accurate, economical bowlers. You cannot simply let him bowl maiden after maiden to you. Therefore, considering that McGrath does not often offer free scoring opportunities to the batsmen, if you wish to score you must play at balls that are in the same corridor - on a length outside off-stump. Again this creates a situation in which you may well edge the ball, given that the deliveries are on an awkward length and he is capable of moving the ball both ways off the seam or in the air. This is another cause for the many edges we see off McGrath.

The point is, these are NOT poor shots, they are batting errors (and every dismissal is a batting error, excluding run outs) forced by excellent, accurate and intelligent bowling. A poor shot is when you get a long-hop or a half-volley and hit it straight down the throat of a fielder, or when you go for a completely unnecessary waft at a wide ball that was never a threat. Putting your bat out when a ball is in the corridor of uncertainty because it is close to the stumps and could move back in to you is not poor batting, it is necessary. Plenty of batsmen don't do it as well, and they still get out. The ONLY way to be successful against McGrath is to be positive, and this is simply a fact. There is not one example of a batsmen succeeding against McGrath in recent times without being positive against him, taking your path and letting McGrath dictate terms to you by going on the defensive is NEVER successful. There are numerous examples in Sehwag, Vaughan, Tendulkar, Lara, Oram and so on where players have attacked McGrath and done far better against him.
So go on, then - how often has McGrath been expensive against them? Hardly ever.
It'd all be very well this corridor-of-uncertainty stuff - the whole point of the COU is that it works for bowlers who move it and not for those who don't.
AND ON FLAT PITCHES, MCGRATH (BETWEEN 2001 AND 2004 AT LEAST) DOES NOT MOVE THE BALL.
Therefore there is no need to play at deliveries not on a line to hit the stumps. And if you do, it's a poor stroke.
And no, not all dismissals involve batting error - RUDs don't involve batting error. And plenty of dismissals are induced poor strokes, such as a wide away-swinging Half-Volley that is hammered off the middle followed by a wide away-swinging just-short-of-Half-Volley-length delivery that is edged.
But playing at a ball you need not is not induced error if the ball is not moving.
If the ball is not moving, either sideways or up and down, any dismissal is down to a poor stroke, an error in the batting.
And hardly anyone, ever, has managed to make McGrath expensive in the last 4 years. In 83 innings-spells, McGrath has gone for more than 3-an-over just 11 times. So basically, people have almost never gone after him (3 of those are explainable by exceptional circumstances - declarations, short chases, out-and-out slogging). Yet in most of these innings batsmen will have scored runs.
Hardly anyone has had success by going after McGrath, and THAT is fact.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
social said:
I was fortunate enough to sit behind the bowler's arm on the first day of the recent Gabba test vs NZ.

McGrath, whilst not at his best, got substantially more bounce out of the wicket than either Gillespie or Kasprowiscz. In addition, and contrary to what the speed-gun had to say, he appeared the quickest of the 3 and hurried all batsmen.

Add to this his subtle use of the crease and seam on what was a pretty flat wicket, and his display was indicative of why he is one of the greatest ever bowlers.
The whole point of a flat wicket is that you can't use the seam to move it off the pitch. And it's a poor batsman indeed that's fooled by change of angle on the crease, or by a bit of bounce.
The speed-gun, meanwhile, tells the truth, while the human eye deceives - McGrath may have appeared the fastest, but he wasn't.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Anil said:
is an edge a poor stroke? yes it is considering that the batsman is not in control of the stroke, the ball mostly stays in the air enough for the keeper or slip to take it....is it possible for a bowler to induce an edge by bowling just short of good length on or just outside the off-stump? would that be considered good bowling?

is shouldering arms to an incoming ball a poor leave? is it possible for a bowler to induce that with his line and length? yes it is!

unless you say that good bowling and poor stroke-play are mutually exclusive you have to agree...

who bowls in that area most of the time? glenn mcgrath...

even you cannot be stupid enough to think that a bowler gets 500 wickets at a fantastic average mostly because of sheer luck and also maybe because all the international batsmen who faced him are morons???
No, just that good batsmen play poor strokes.
If the ball is moving, things such as edges and ill-advisable leaves aren't poor strokes. If it's not, they are.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Warne's a bowler who's not had an extrarodinarily large number of spells where he's got 3 or 4 wickets without bowling wicket-taking deliveries.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Well apparently if you put things in bold and/or capitals it makes them more correct, now matter how wrong it has been proven to be...
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Richard said:
It is not possible to force a poor stroke.
What?, of course it is when McGrath keeps bowling it thier and their abouts ball after ball a batsman wants to score and that were he will make the mistake of playing a poor stroke off a good delivery which results in his downfall.
 

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