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Dravid goes to number 1 in test ratings

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Son Of Coco said:
Because in your posts you seem to lose your grasp on what's good bowling and put it down to luck. You also seem to judge each ball individually without taking into account what's happened before....
Not so - I believe that batsmen shouldn't be premeditating their strokes, shouldn't be worrying about what they need not worry about (eg the scoring-rate in a limitless-over game) - but I do believe, as it'd be stupid not to, that if the ball is moving around in both directions you're not going to be sure what it's going to do next.
how exactly does McGrath bowl differently on flat decks? His line would be similar, his length would be similar in that allows for a ball coming through at top of stump height (obviously not the same length as a wicket with bounce, but the attempted result would be the same), he obviously wouldn't move it as often on a wicket that doesn't invite seam, it requires more patience and variation on flat wicket - something McGrath is an expert at using. Your posts seem to suggest he's a bit of a one trick pony, whether this is intentional or not. Do you pick up the subtle variations a bowler uses when you're watching on TV Richard? The use of the crease? The small amounts of movement they actually are able to pick up? Contrary to your belief that you have to move the ball large amounts, moving it both ways off the seam negates the need for massive amounts of movement even more so.
Yes, you can pick-up small variations on TV, if you look carefully enough; and it's even easier to do now that we've got HawkEyes on virtually every television company going around.
And yes, I've looked at moving the ball both ways, too - it does tend to make batsmen look a bit more uncomfortable than just tiny little amounts in the same direction, which make little if any impact, but it still rarely causes edges.
The ball has to move about a bat and a half's width to start taking edges.
Some people have a very bad idea about what constitutes a "small" and "large" amount of movement; it's not uncommon for a new ball in the right hands to swing a couple of feet; it's not uncommon for a wristspinner who really rips it to turn it a couple of feet. That is a large amount of movement, and no, of course it'll never be realistically likely for that ball itself to take a wicket. It will, though, plant huge seeds of doubt and often result in wickets with balls that go straight on, or those that go a tiny amount.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Son Of Coco said:
If you do, then why so much evidence to the contrary.

A lot of what I mentioned above relates to how McGrath bowls, so if he's 'lucky' I presume you think that's bad bowling.
No, I just think it's not how McGrath bowls. Most McGrath-on-flat-pitch wickets come from poor strokes to deliveries that don't move at all, at a time when no doubt can be caused by the ball moving.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
C_C said:
You obviously havn't seen many Michael holding, Waqar Younis ( early version), Imran Khan(80s), Thommo or even Alan Donald dismissals.
Not to mention, you are completely incorrect about mispicking the pace of the ball.
Walsh, Kapil, etc. THRIVED on it.
No, you're completely incorrect in thinking that it happened significantly often.
You either havn't or you didnt understand it at all. Otherwise you wouldn't be comming up with such ridiculous ideas.
I have, and I understand it far better than most people. I understand what most people see as ridiculous that the variation in pace very rarely causes batsmen to lose their wicket.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
C_C said:
I think you are the one displaying an inability to grasp basic truths. And its irrelevant as to what research you've conducted. Self praise *IS* the last bastion of the egotistically idiotic ones. you are building quiete a case for yourself in that category.
No, you are trying to build a case for it. And failing.
It's not irrelevant at all, I've every right to big myself up if I know what I'm on about.
Medically, you can tell consistently the difference of 3mph. And the slower one might seem quicker to US. because we are seeing it from a totally different trajectory and angle, not to mention we have an element of parallax involved.
The batsmen dont have the parallax problem and when you are batting you DO know which one is quicker. Ask a player to stand where the batsman is and rate deliveries as quicker or slower than the previous/next one while confirming with a speedgun. The accuracy you will find is quiete impressive.
No, you'll find it's quite terrible. I've done it myself, many times; heard batsmen talking about how quick someone was bowling when there was no speedgun in their view and while already knowing myself that they were in fact not bowling that fast. We've also seen countless times where commentators have said "that was a quick ball" and found it to be no quicker whatsoever than the last few.
I am not talking on an individual level. I am talking on a collective level. and no, collectively a weirder action and inferior nutrition will give you a slower mean bowling speeds.
Collectively? Do you mean generally? If so, you're wrong, again - pace of bowling depends primarily on speed of arm, and fitness. And given some of the pursuits involved in the more reticent days (such as mining and farmworking) many cricketers were actually very fit, even if not as well nourished as standard today.
And there's absolutely no reason why modern-day bowlers should have faster arms than older ones.
Your reasoning is inconsistent ( not to mention, ridiculous). I still fail to see why premeditating the length is any worse than premeditating the movement.
Because it's easy to pick length, it's impossible to pick movement. You pick length almost the split-second the ball is delivered; you can never know how much or in which direction a ball is going to move until it does so.
There are no variations a spectator will spot BETTER than a close in fielder or a batsman.
The players who've faced McGrath ( and like i said, some of them i've talked to personally are international level players who are quiete successful) are on record saying that he has the most variations of any pacer in the last 10-15years barring Akram. Something i agree with, having watched McGrath bowling in the nets.
A decent TV viewer will be able to pick variation every bit as well, if not better, than a close-fielder, given countless close-ups and slo-mos.
Ambrose was NOT a big mover of the ball. I've seen Ambrose bowl throughout the 90s and he didnt move the ball much at all.
And I've seen him bowl plenty and plenty, and I've seen countless deliveries which he moved miles.
Again, i say, you have NO CLUE.
a 1cm movement is enough to fox a batsman. Thats all it takes to induce an edge or for the ball to miss the bat.
No, you have no clue - you clearly haven't taken a look at a large selection of deliveries that move certain amounts. 1cm of movement will barely register, especially on a short ball.
Not to mention, you are factually incorrect- as batsmen have one of the least level of success consistently middling McGrath's deliveries compared to other bowlers, not to mention, Kumble as well.
They do indeed - because McGrath on a seamer and Kumble on a turner are incredibly difficult to middle.
 

Son Of Coco

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Richard said:
Which simply shows that slower-balls are bowled lots and lots less (there's a good reason they're bowled less, too - if you bowl a slower-ball too often it becomes highly predictable) - and so it's a better idea to try sideways-movement than change-of-pace.
No Richard....the percentage would show, on average, how often you got a wicket when you bowled that type of ball, not just how often each was bowled.
 

Son Of Coco

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Richard said:
Not so - I believe that batsmen shouldn't be premeditating their strokes, shouldn't be worrying about what they need not worry about (eg the scoring-rate in a limitless-over game) - but I do believe, as it'd be stupid not to, that if the ball is moving around in both directions you're not going to be sure what it's going to do next.

Yes, you can pick-up small variations on TV, if you look carefully enough; and it's even easier to do now that we've got HawkEyes on virtually every television company going around.
And yes, I've looked at moving the ball both ways, too - it does tend to make batsmen look a bit more uncomfortable than just tiny little amounts in the same direction, which make little if any impact, but it still rarely causes edges.
The ball has to move about a bat and a half's width to start taking edges.
Some people have a very bad idea about what constitutes a "small" and "large" amount of movement; it's not uncommon for a new ball in the right hands to swing a couple of feet; it's not uncommon for a wristspinner who really rips it to turn it a couple of feet. That is a large amount of movement, and no, of course it'll never be realistically likely for that ball itself to take a wicket. It will, though, plant huge seeds of doubt and often result in wickets with balls that go straight on, or those that go a tiny amount.
If it's seaming in on occasions and going straight through, it's already moving in two directions.

These posts are pointless though Richard, I don't think I'll ever wrap my head around your style of thought - even though Michael Jackson once said 'it don't matter if it's Black or White' (or words to that effect) :huh: , I think that when referring to thought about cricket it does. You combine way out ideas with rigid thoughts about what constitutes a certain scenario in cricket and it's kind of pointless to talk to you about it. We've had these conversations a thousand times before...
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Son Of Coco said:
No Richard....the percentage would show, on average, how often you got a wicket when you bowled that type of ball, not just how often each was bowled.
And the percentage that matters is not how many slower-deliveries you have to bowl to take a wicket but how many deliveries you have to bowl to take a wicket with a slower-delivery.
It's no good having a slower-delivery-strike-rate of 30 if your all-delivery strike-rate is 300, is it?
 

sledger

Spanish_Vicente
Richard said:
No, I just think it's not how McGrath bowls. Most McGrath-on-flat-pitch wickets come from poor strokes to deliveries that don't move at all, at a time when no doubt can be caused by the ball moving.
mcgrath has one type of ball, if you can get the ball away after he pitches it on off stump then he has no second plan, this is how laxman smashed him and brought up that huge innings for india, this is what KP will attempt in the summer :p he will take a step outside off stump and smash him for 6.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Son Of Coco said:
If it's seaming in on occasions and going straight through, it's already moving in two directions.

These posts are pointless though Richard, I don't think I'll ever wrap my head around your style of thought - even though Michael Jackson once said 'it don't matter if it's Black or White' (or words to that effect) :huh: , I think that when referring to thought about cricket it does. You combine way out ideas with rigid thoughts about what constitutes a certain scenario in cricket and it's kind of pointless to talk to you about it. We've had these conversations a thousand times before...
Yes, and believe it or not I always appreciate having these conversations with you, because you are always willing to debate the matter rationally and sensibly, unlike so many others.
What MJ once said was "I Said If You're Thinkin' Of Being My Brother It Don't Matter If
You're Black Or White"... doesn't totally make sense but there you go, most of the best songs have nonsensical lyrics - eg RHCPs and Oasis.
I'm sure you won't ever wrap your head around my style of thought - but I might as well try and communicate it.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
sledger said:
mcgrath has one type of ball, if you can get the ball away after he pitches it on off stump then he has no second plan, this is how laxman smashed him and brought up that huge innings for india, this is what KP will attempt in the summer :p he will take a step outside off stump and smash him for 6.
Hmm... much as it'd be nice taking some steps away, against any bowler, is asking for trouble in Test-cricket.
 

Anil

Hall of Fame Member
Richard said:
And I've seen him bowl plenty and plenty, and I've seen countless deliveries which he moved miles.
...and i agree with you on that...ambrose moved the ball much, much more than mcgrath for most of his career...
 

Son Of Coco

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Richard said:
And the percentage that matters is not how many slower-deliveries you have to bowl to take a wicket but how many deliveries you have to bowl to take a wicket with a slower-delivery.
It's no good having a slower-delivery-strike-rate of 30 if your all-delivery strike-rate is 300, is it?
Ok (I just can't help myself :mellow: ):

If you're looking at the percentage re: the number of times you bowl a slower ball and it takes a wicket then you're only looking at the slower ball itself.

If, however, you're looking at what percentage of dismissals overall are made up of those coming from slower balls you look at all deliveries.

To me it sounded like you were talking about the former. If your overall delivery SR is 300, I doubt you'd be getting the chance to bowl many slower balls (or delivery of any kind) in the first place! :p
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
sledger said:
mcgrath has one type of ball, if you can get the ball away after he pitches it on off stump then he has no second plan, this is how laxman smashed him and brought up that huge innings for india, this is what KP will attempt in the summer :p he will take a step outside off stump and smash him for 6.
Actually he has developed a very potent off cutter at good pace since then and it was part of the reason why he was so successful this season in India than in the past.... So, I think KP would get a few single figure scores if he attempts what you think he would....
 
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Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Son Of Coco said:
Ok (I just can't help myself :mellow: ):

If you're looking at the percentage re: the number of times you bowl a slower ball and it takes a wicket then you're only looking at the slower ball itself.

If, however, you're looking at what percentage of dismissals overall are made up of those coming from slower balls you look at all deliveries.

To me it sounded like you were talking about the former. If your overall delivery SR is 300, I doubt you'd be getting the chance to bowl many slower balls (or delivery of any kind) in the first place! :p
No, exactly.
The reality, of course, is that bowlers take rare wickets with slower-deliveries and plenty of wickets with other deliveries in the meantime. Sometimes slower-balls can help make other deliveries into wicket-taking ones, of course.
I'd say probably about 1 in 30 slower-balls can be expected to take a wicket at the Test-level; a slower-ball can't really be bowled more than once every 3 overs on a normal pitch otherwise it'll become too predictable. So, on a very guesstimated average, I'd say slower-balls will take wickets, for a single bowler, every 90 overs or so. Seem high? Yes, it does. And because we remember all the slower-balls that got wickets and not the copious number that didn't, we think "no way".
But, based on fairly rough research, I'd say that figure was reasonably accurate.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
honestbharani said:
Actually he has developed a very potent off cutter at good pace since then and it was part of the reason why he was so successful this season in India than in the past.... So, I think KP would get a few single figure scores if he attempts what you think he would....
Judging by KPP (and AJS)'s early-season form there could be quite a few single-figure scores anyway... :(
 

Swervy

International Captain
Richard said:
No, exactly.
The reality, of course, is that bowlers take rare wickets with slower-deliveries and plenty of wickets with other deliveries in the meantime. Sometimes slower-balls can help make other deliveries into wicket-taking ones, of course..

mmm...so you do acknowledge that preceeding deliveries can actually eventually lead to a ball that takes a wicket....now we are getting somewhere with you

Richard said:
But, based on fairly rough research, I'd say that figure was reasonably accurate.

thats more like the old Richard
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Find me where I've said they never do?
What I've said time and again and will continue to say is that things in which changes are easily spotted (length, line, angle-on-crease, etc.) are not something that will cause good batsmen problems; nor is a slow scoring-rate in a limitless-over game.
But of course some things, principally such things as sideways and\or up-and-down movement, but also change-of-pace to a lesser extent, do cause doubt and it'd be terrible batsmenship if they didn't.
 

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