Best English spinner?

[Nate]

Giles by a fair bit I reckon. Dont see many up-and-coming spinners in FC comp. Am I wrong?

Just to be OT and to stir controversy - Vettori is better

 

[Smudge]

Best English spinner?

Alastair Campbell.

 

[Robertinho]

Best English Spinner by far,

The up and coming leggie from Lancashire - SA "steds" Bennett!

 

[Corbin]

From the english spinners i no...

1 Giles
2 Batty
3 Dawson

Wateva happened to dawson havent seen him play since ashes here in AUS

 

[BoyBrumby]

From the english spinners i no...

1 Giles
2 Batty
3 Dawson

Wateva happened to dawson havent seen him play since ashes here in AUS

He's been really ar$e of late, IIRC his career FC bowling average is a shade over 40 now.

I think it says something for the paucity of our spinning options that he was still chosen to go on this year's "A" tour to UAE & Sri Lanka!

I have to go with Ash Giles really; I'm sure he'd be the first to tell you he's not in Murali's or Warne's class, but he bowls a tight line & is a more subtle bowler than he's generally given credit for. Since Vaughan has taken over (excepting the tour to SA when Ash was criminally underbowled for some reason) he's been treated as more than a purely containing bowler & we've seen the upturn in his performances as a result. True, he got some help from the English pitches last summer, but Dan Vettori bowled on the same pitches & Ash's figures were the more impressive of the two.

Thankfully we haven't seen the turgid constant bowling outside the right-hander's leg stump we were "treated" to on our last tour to India for some time.

Batty hasn't really done anything to warrant his retention, so I think Graeme Swann might be the next to get a go. His figures form the "A" tour suggest he's bowling well in Asian conditions & I'm certain big Dunc will have noted his fighting half-century (albeit in a losing cause) in the 2nd unofficial test vs SL. Short of a disasterous FC season in '05 I think he'll tour India & Pakistan this winter.

 

[Link]

have to say that i was been impressed with Dawson last season. He has changed is action quite a lot for some reason and he was turning it (more that Giles), on most pitches. He was someone i kept my eye on last season and he bowled well, even tightly in the totesport league.

However i cant admit to being a prolific Yorkshire supporter

 

[honestbharani]

Didn't Dinesh Mongia have the best economy rate at some point during the 20-20 last year in England?


And if Warne is gonna buy a home in England, shouldn't he be the best spinner in England?


Seriously, amongst the guys I have seen, I rate Giles. Croft and Batty were just crap.

 

[Neil Pickup]

Didn't Dinesh Mongia have the best economy rate at some point during the 20-20 last year in England?


And if Warne is gonna buy a home in England, shouldn't he be the best spinner in England?


Seriously, amongst the guys I have seen, I rate Giles. Croft and Batty were just crap.

All the spinners did really well in the Twenty20, Mongia being helped by bowling at OT and benefiting from a tail implosion at one point, IIRC.

 

[SpeedKing]

have to say that i was been impressed with Dawson last season. He has changed is action quite a lot for some reason and he was turning it (more that Giles), on most pitches. He was someone i kept my eye on last season and he bowled well, even tightly in the totesport league.

However i cant admit to being a prolific Yorkshire supporter

it is a well known fact that giles doesn't turn the ball very much in non-helpful conditions. it is just that he is impeccably accurate which other spinners like salisbury etc (who turned it more than him) cant even dream of being

 

[Richard]

This is a crazy question.
England have never had a decent wristspinner (closest we ever came was Doug Wright, who had the most unorthodox run-up ever).
England have always had a history of producing excellent fingerspinners, though: Rhodes, Verity, Lock, Laker, Underwood, Giles, Croft. Some would put Tufnell up with them; personally I think he's too volatile, an unreliable bowler.
The simple fact of the matter is, it's highly probable there's little difference in the ability of these bowlers. It is wholly ridiculous to suggest that the fingerspinners of yesteryear were lightyears ahead of those of today, and Underwood's case illustrates this perfectly:
Up to 1972: 27 Tests, 120 wickets at 19.51.
From 1972\73 onwards: 59 Tests, 169 wickets at 30.98. And he was much more effective in India and against the relatively weak New Zealanders than anyone else.
Quite clearly, the covering of wickets has made fingerspin a far, far less effective art than it used to be, because spin-friendly pitches used to abound in England; now are very, very rare indeed.
You simply need to look at Croft and Giles' records when given a turning pitch to see just how good they are.
However, like any fingerspinner, when given a flat pitch they're useless. And it is not fair to write them off as "ordinary" because they don't often get helpful surfaces.
However, aside from Croft and Giles, England's resources are woefully thin, as demonstrated by Dawson and Batty, who played plenty of their Test-careers on helpful pitches and still ended-up with abysmal records. All right, there are better spinners around (Brown, Swann and Keedy) but to compare any of those 3 to Giles and Croft is ridiculous, because if Giles or Croft played at Northlands Road, the only really spin-friendly square in the country, their First-Class averages would probably be in the 27-28 region. Brown and Swann have had this benefit, and even then their records are mediocre. But that they're still far more effective than any other fingerspinners knocking around (except Keedy, who's been strangely effective these last 2 years) says a lot.
The only time England will ever produce "World-beating" spinners is if they either start producing an abundance of spin-friendly pitches or manage to find a high-class wristspinner. But given that wristspin is almost impossible to bowl to county, never mind international, standard, I'll be thanking my lucky stars if it happens.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

The only time England will ever produce "World-beating" spinners is if they either start producing an abundance of spin-friendly pitches or manage to find a high-class wristspinner. But given that wristspin is almost impossible to bowl to county, never mind international, standard, I'll be thanking my lucky stars if it happens.

Interesting. So in other words, no spinners are any good, if fingerspin is universally useless with covered wickets and wristspin is almost impossible to bowl? Anyway, Harbhajan, Saqlain and Vettori are evidence that fingerspin is still valuable. Dan Cullen, a 20 year old fingerspinner in Australia, just finished taking 22 wickets @ 18 in his last three FC matches in his debut season as well, and you know what Australian pitches are like in terms of giving fingerspinners assistance. It's far from a dead art.

 

[12th Man]

The fact that there are very few spinning english pitches gives the mian reason why there are few quality spinners. But look at warne, the mcg isn't a very good spinning track

 

[marc71178]

if Giles or Croft played at Northlands Road, the only really spin-friendly square in the country, their First-Class averages would probably be in the 27-28 region.

Rather than the 28.97 Gules has currently?

Big difference that,

 

[Richard]

Giles' might even be below 27.

 

[Richard]

The fact that there are very few spinning english pitches gives the mian reason why there are few quality spinners. But look at warne, the mcg isn't a very good spinning track

But Warne's a wristspinner.
For a wristspinner any track is a turning track.

 

[Richard]

Interesting. So in other words, no spinners are any good, if fingerspin is universally useless with covered wickets and wristspin is almost impossible to bowl? Anyway, Harbhajan, Saqlain and Vettori are evidence that fingerspin is still valuable.

No, Harbhajan and Saqlain are evidence that fingerspin with a Doosra is even more effective than normal fingerspin on a turning pitch; and they are evidence that even fingerspin with a Doosra is no use on a non-turner - as you'll see by their records on non-turners.
Vettori, meanwhile, demonstrates the case perfectly - on a turner he's usually a real handful (except during the 4-year period where he had lots of injury problems) and given that they don't abound very often even when you take out the period where he had injury problems his average is still in the early-mid-30s.

Dan Cullen, a 20 year old fingerspinner in Australia, just finished taking 22 wickets @ 18 in his last three FC matches in his debut season as well, and you know what Australian pitches are like in terms of giving fingerspinners assistance. It's far from a dead art.

And I hardly think it's likely Cullen will amount to anything. It's possibly just first-season-flattery that happens so often.

 

[aussie]

aussie

And I hardly think it's likely Cullen will amount to anything. It's possibly just first-season-flattery that happens so often.

How can u say that, maybe its true, but its too early to say because from what i can remember i dont think the great shane warne had a superb debut season for victoria back in 1990/91 season it was in his second season in 1991/92 when he impressed the aussie selectors and made his debut againts india. But its too early to say what cullen could become, if he falls away horrible over the next couple of seasons well then i'll accept that comment

 

[Richard]

One rather important difference.
Warne is a wristspinner, Cullen a fingerspinner.
Go on then - when was the last time Australia had a good fingerspinner?

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

One rather important difference.
Warne is a wristspinner, Cullen a fingerspinner.
Go on then - when was the last time Australia had a good fingerspinner?

Traditionally, Australia doesn't produce many good fingerspinners. The dynamic has always been that wristspinners come from Australia (O'Reilly, Grimmett, Benaud, Warne etc) and fingerspinners come from England (Verity, Laker, Underwood etc). The last time Australia had a fingerspinner I would consider "good" was probably Tim May, but he was only good, not great. The last time Australia had a "great" fingerspinner was probably never. However, this is irrelevant to Cullen, who I think is a pretty fine bowler. He's not likely to take 500 wickets at 20 in tests or anything, but he's a talent.

 

[aussie]

aussie

However, this is irrelevant to Cullen, who I think is a pretty fine bowler. He's not likely to take 500 wickets at 20 in tests or anything, but he's a talent.

Yes he is a talent, but its too soon to judge him a prdict what kind of future they could have but its an impressive start for the lad and for aussie fans like us, his emergence could argue well for australia for once having a finger spinner that could challenge the world is an intersting prospect