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Most underrated and overrated players in the world?

Son Of Coco

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Richard said:
Yep, true - maybe I should have said he's not been anywhere near as good as assumed in the 2001-2005 period.
I do still think it's not at all illogical to deduce that what was the case here was the case before, too.
It's an extremely basic example of using a somewhat tenuous link to assume there's a pattern in something that doesn't follow any pattern of sorts based on something that is purely your opinion and has no factual basis.
 

Son Of Coco

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Richard said:
Because every batsman has got out cheaply when McGrath's bowling, haven't they?
I thought you were talking about getting out playing a bad shot, not getting out cheaply!?
 

Son Of Coco

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Richard said:
Wow - a whole 2 games.
1 in Hayden's case - given that his innings in the 1st game was a very, very poor one indeed.
If you forget the rest of his career of course......which I'm sure you've read about somewhere.
 

FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
Overrated
1) Stephen Fleming (if only because people put him in World XIs and so on - he's a good player, just not a great)
2) Muttiah Muralitharan (a great bowler, but not anywhere near the best of all time as some people like to claim)
3) Steve Harmison (coming down to earth now, but calling him the best bowler in the world was ludicrous)

Underrated
1) Shoaib Akhtar (so many people get caught up on his personal problems that they don't seem to realise that he is a top-shelf bowler)
2) Brett Lee (talked down more than any other player on this forum, but he is a quality bowler and is improving as time goes on)
3) Chaminda Vaas (quality bowler, often overlooked)


It's so absolutely ludicrous to see people claiming that McGrath is overrated, I really don't know what to say. Even more amazing is that the reason given is that McGrath, possibly the greatest bowler on a flat deck ever seen (given that the conditions have not been as batsman friendly as they are not for several decades), is apparently a bully who can only bowl on seaming tracks!
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Jono said:
They're ignoring the NZ/Aus tour thread ;)
I only posted 120 times or something even in the D'Oliveira Trophy thread, involving my favourite two teams.
I don't often post in lengthy *Official* threads because discussion generally moves too quickly.
tooextracool, in case you hadn't noticed, hasn't been around at all recently.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
FaaipDeOiad said:
Steve Harmison (coming down to earth now, but calling him the best bowler in the world was ludicrous)
Which simply says that both the rankings, and the idea that they rank who is best rather than just who is in-form, are farcical.
It's so absolutely ludicrous to see people claiming that McGrath is overrated, I really don't know what to say. Even more amazing is that the reason given is that McGrath, possibly the greatest bowler on a flat deck ever seen (given that the conditions have not been as batsman friendly as they are not for several decades), is apparently a bully who can only bowl on seaming tracks!
Because I don't say someone has to have bowled well just because they've got good figures.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Son Of Coco said:
If you forget the rest of his career of course......which I'm sure you've read about somewhere.
And I've seen far more than I've not.
No-one mentioned the rest of his career - they were trying to say it was actually better that the rest, indeed.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Son Of Coco said:
I thought you were talking about getting out playing a bad shot, not getting out cheaply!?
McGrath bowls enough overs so that no batsman can score heavily without facing him.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Son Of Coco said:
It's an extremely basic example of using a somewhat tenuous link to assume there's a pattern in something that doesn't follow any pattern of sorts based on something that is purely your opinion and has no factual basis.
Like I say - the strokes are not purely opinion, they're totally factual.
The reason is the opinion, yes, and I've not claimed it's gospel that McGrath's career must have gone the same way 1993-2000, you'll never find that anywhere.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Son Of Coco said:
Of course he can Richard....but I digress, we've had this argument before. I have no doubt that you and your brother have already carried out rock solid statistical research whereby your brother picked 10 highlighted names out of a bunch of 11 and have thereby proven that McGrath is indeed the luckiest bowler in the world. Now, if Harmison can get nearly as lucky and the other bowlers win lotto we'll have a ripping series come the summer.
My brother didn't play any part in the luck test - he was just a pawn.
And satirising things which have absolutely no comparison won't get you anywhere.
It's not really possible to use statistical research for bowling.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Fiery said:
No wonder you two guys have over 12,000 posts each. I reckon about 10,000 of them have been when arguing with each other. :dry:
Nah, I joined 2 years after Marc did.
Before that the arguments you see between me and him occurred with this guy. Sadly he left in March 2004, or some point around then.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Son Of Coco said:
Ok, but he bowls in an area where a lot of batsmen will be lured into playing a false stroke at some time or other. Doesn't get a lot of runs off him, bowls in the corridor, extremely accurate, takes wickets through getting just enough movement to keep a batmans guessing combined with abovementioned accuracy. I'm afraid that, to me, that sounds like a very good bowler - not a very lucky one.
Yet that sort of generalisation overlooks the most important fact - the very deliveries that have taken the wickets.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
LongHopCassidy said:
It's not his fault what stroke the batsman plays.
No, it's not - but what the hell does that matter?
Fault is only relevant if you've lost something - McGrath has done the precise opposite - he's gained something (wickets) so fault is totally irrelevant and credit is what matters.
And he doesn't if you ask me deserve credit for poor strokes.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
marc71178 said:
So the evidence of just about anyone to play International Cricket isn't enough for you then? 8-)
Not when it's directly contradicted by what actually happened, no.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
social said:
Lovely to see Hayden and Lee CONTINUING to do well!

Enjoy Richard and TEC!
2 whole ODIs! and with regard to lee, ive never said that hes useless in ODIs, so his good performances really dont surprise me, we've seen them before.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Richard said:
No, I do nothing of the sort.
I just don't use the figures he's got - I use watching the strokes played to get those figures (and where I don't watch I read)..
you use the strokes you watch from less than 1/5 of his career! and then you read match reports(which id like to see that state that mcgrath got all his wickets from poor strokes), the same ones that you state are wrong almost all the time.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Richard said:
No, of 4.38..
err his ER before the WC in 99 was 5. so dont throw in your random numbers whereever you feel like.

Richard said:
Despite the fact that he's played on plenty of non-seaming tracks and they're evened-up.
no it hasnt, because hes been hammered on every single occasion that he played on a non seamer friendly tracks. and this track was certainly too seamer friendly for any performance to be considered as a good one.

Richard said:
It is, but someone can be forgiven a rubbish economy-rate if his average is exceptional, and 18.83 is exceptional..
its 20 odd(dont even try to include performances against b'desh and scotland), and its not exceptional because he got to play on seamer friendly tracks during the world cup. the fact that hes was rubbish before the wc and after it, suggests that he was a rubbish player who peaked when the conditions suited him. who does that remind me off?



Richard said:
You can't know that, the rest of his meaningful ODI-career numbers so few games. And we all know what a bad idea comparing Tests and ODIs are, don't we?
why not? if someone cant buy a wicket in tests and has an average of 20 odd in ODIs @4.6(which means that he clearly wasnt accurate either), its damn obvious that hes not a wicket taking bowler. its simply impossible for someone to be wicket taking in one form of the game and not in another form of the game despite not being accurate. unless of course you have the conditions to your favour(which he was fortunate enough to have had for the wc 99). had he been fit and played more ODIs, he would have been exposed as the mediocre bowler that he clearly was.

Richard said:
So if you pick-and-choose, finding excuses for almost everything, you can find he's a poor bowler.
have you ever seen a reflection of yourself? everything on here that you say relies on your picking and choosing the statistics you want, the stupidest of which are the ones where you say " if you remove his good performances, and look at his poor performances, you can see that hes quite clearly a poor bowler"

Richard said:
Despite the fact I've watched Katich play spin several times, and I've also spoken to people who've watched him play and also said he's not great against it.
well the person who you spoke to is obviously another fool, katich has proved the both of you wrong.

Richard said:
As supposed to you who've watched him play 3 innings.
which is more than enough to decide whether or not someone is good enough against spin, especially if hes played all those innings on spinner friendly wickets and against a quality spin bowler.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Richard said:
Like I say - the strokes are not purely opinion, they're totally factual.
The reason is the opinion, yes, and I've not claimed it's gospel that McGrath's career must have gone the same way 1993-2000, you'll never find that anywhere.
no you've only claimed that he wasnt a great bowler, based on 2001-05
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Richard said:
Like I say - the strokes are not purely opinion, they're totally factual.
yes they are, someone like you says that a bicknell inswinger, that a batsman completely misjudges, leaves the ball and gets lbw is a wicket taking delivery, even though it was the batsman who made the mistake, yet when mcgrath gets a wicket as by product of creating pressure, you claim that its not a wicket taking delivery
 

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