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***best Bowlers***

Tom Halsey

International Coach
C_C said:
well i dont give ODIs the same level of importance i give to tests. but its a tough ask to have a cumulative ODI and Test record....for eg, if McGrath leads murali by the same margin in ODIs as murali leads him in tests, how do we say who is better ?
I don't know the stats, but if that is the case, then McGrath, because Murali gets so much assistance from pitches.
 

C_C

International Captain
I don't know the stats, but if that is the case, then McGrath, because Murali gets so much assistance from pitches.
One can make the same contentions about McGrath or practically any fast bowler produced by AUS,WI and RSA......they ply their trades half the time on home pitches, which are/were tailormade for pace bowlers.
 

Tom Halsey

International Coach
C_C said:
So i guess since McGrath plays half his games in Aus, his average most certainly isnt that great, eh ?
Australia isn't exactly a seamers paradise though, there's bounce but little seam movement usually and not as much swing around as in New Zealand and England.
 

Tom Halsey

International Coach
C_C said:
One can make the same contentions about McGrath or practically any fast bowler produced by AUS,WI and RSA......they ply their trades half the time on home pitches, which are/were tailormade for pace bowlers.
I wouldn't say they're tailormade for pace.
 

C_C

International Captain
Australia isn't exactly a seamers paradise though, there's bounce but little seam movement usually and not as much swing around as in New Zealand and England.
And most pitches in SL/IND are slow wickets and low bounce.....ask any spinner and they will tell you (as well as most batsmen) that they prefer wickets where the ball comes on to the bat and there is generous bounce...

I dont see why you would call SL pitches to be tailormade for spinners when in reality, very few pitches are tailormade for any particular type of bowling or batting.....most wickets lean some way or another but its clear that subcontinent wickets in general lean towards spinners and aussie wickets in general lean towards pacers....therefore if one tries to undermine the credibility of subcontinental spinners due to the 'spin leaning' nature of most subcontinental pitches, one can just as easily undermine the credibility of aussie/pom/protea/windian/kiwi pacers dur to the 'pace leaning' nature of most pitches from those parts of the world...
 

Tom Halsey

International Coach
C_C said:
1) And most pitches in SL/IND are slow wickets and low bounce.....ask any spinner and they will tell you (as well as most batsmen) that they prefer wickets where the ball comes on to the bat and there is generous bounce...

2) I dont see why you would call SL pitches to be tailormade for spinners when in reality, very few pitches are tailormade for any particular type of bowling or batting..
1) That is a rediculous comment... yes bounce is preferrable, but surely you're not suggesting Sri Lankan and Indian pitches don't favour spinners?!

2) Then why did you suggest that Australian pitches are all tailormade towards pace bowlers then?
 

C_C

International Captain
1) That is a rediculous comment... yes bounce is preferrable, but surely you're not suggesting Sri Lankan and Indian pitches don't favour spinners?!

2) Then why did you suggest that Australian pitches are all tailormade towards pace bowlers then?
I think the misunderstanding is over the usage of the word 'tailormade'.
Tailormade implies that its PERFECT for something......most pitches on the subcontinent lean towards the spinners(ie, offer them more assistance than pacers) and the opposite is true for OZ/ENG/RSA/WI/NZ. ....not perfect setting.
 

Tom Halsey

International Coach
IMO the Sub-Continent is more favoured towards spinners than merely 'lean towards spinners'. In general, Australian pitches, while they offer bounce, don't offer too much movement for seamers.
 

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
I have to give credit to you guys. You've done something fresh and new. Its not an argument regarding who is better, Murali and Warne. It's between Murali and McGrath :p

To avoid the argument, if we're going by the last say, 2 years:
Pace: McGrath
Spin: Murali

Done and done :D
 

a massive zebra

International Captain
Murali at his best is in my opinion more dangerous while McGrath is the epitome of consistency. Few would argue that throughout history there have been many fast bowlers as great as McGrath but very few spinners, if any, have had the same success as Murali.

Both true legends. :)
 

C_C

International Captain
IMO the Sub-Continent is more favoured towards spinners than merely 'lean towards spinners'. In general, Australian pitches, while they offer bounce, don't offer too much movement for seamers.
Perth is an awesome place for fast bowlers....lots of bounce but not extra movement....similarly Brisbane which suits pacers for the first 3 days or so.

MOST subcontinental pitches offer turn but not enough bounce........a perfect bowling surface is one that offers deviation off the pitch and awesome bounce......eg the NZ pitches in NZ vs IND last series there or Durban in the mid/late 90s.

There is nothing to conclude that subcontinental pitches are more favourable to spin than the aussie ones are to pace.
 

Tom Halsey

International Coach
a massive zebra said:
Murali at his best is in my opinion more dangerous while McGrath is the epitome of consistency. Few would argue that throughout history there have been many fast bowlers as great as McGrath but very few spinners, if any, have had the same success as Murali.

Both true legends. :)
Murali's success isn't surprising considering the pitches he plays on though.
 

Tom Halsey

International Coach
C_C said:
Perth is an awesome place for fast bowlers....lots of bounce but not extra movement....similarly Brisbane which suits pacers for the first 3 days or so.

MOST subcontinental pitches offer turn but not enough bounce........a perfect bowling surface is one that offers deviation off the pitch and awesome bounce......eg the NZ pitches in NZ vs IND last series there or Durban in the mid/late 90s.

There is nothing to conclude that subcontinental pitches are more favourable to spin than the aussie ones are to pace.
I hope you're not trying to say that some places in the World offer more assistance to spin than the Sub-Continent.
 
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Tom Halsey

International Coach
He didn't, which is why I said 'I hope'. Tbh I still think the Sub-Continent is more suited to spinners than Australia is to seamers.
 

C_C

International Captain
Tbh I still think the Sub-Continent is more suited to spinners than Australia is to seamers.
There is no reason really to think that.
The subcontinent doesnt have a WACA or a brisbane.
 

age_master

Hall of Fame Member
but Australia does have an SCG and an adelaide oval, both suited more to the spinners more often than not
 

C_C

International Captain
but Australia does have an SCG and an adelaide oval, both suited more to the spinners more often than not
SCG and Adelaide help spinners but not as much as the subcontinent.
Just as Mohali and Karachi aids pacers but not as much as WACA or brisbane.

The point i am trying to make is that if someone uses the 'subcontinent =favourable to spinners = less credibility of their records' line, one can easily use the 'australia/south africa/WI/ENG/NZ = favourable to pacers = less credibility of their records' line.
 

chaminda_00

Hall of Fame Member
This is why i think McGarth is slightly a little bit better then Murali:
Murali McGrath
Out Ave Out Ave
J Kallis 6 34.8 6 9.8
I Ul Haq 5 39.6 5 23.8
B lara 5 56.8 13 30
R Dravid 4 32.3 4 12.5
S Fleming 3 56.7 5 33.6
S Tendulkar 2 75.5 6 22.2

These are the best 6 batsmen IMO throught majority of both of these batsmen careers. As u can see McGarth got a better record aganist then all. I hate to admitt it but Murali gets allot of wickets against tailenders which brings down his average and other stats.
 

Tim

Cricketer Of The Year
Interesting that Stephen Fleming seems to be the best at playing both of those bowlers.
 

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