Rawalpindi Express derailed

[SJS]

Originally Posted by Slow Love™

Firstly, as to the comment "surely Shoaib can't be the only one who is correct.", why can't he be? If the world wants to discuss my mental or physical tolerances, am I not equipped to answer that question accurately on an individual basis? Which is not to say that he can't be wrong, but why the automatic assumption that if he disagrees, he must be?

Aside from this though, you're over-emphasising anecdotal evidence of bowlers making comments on the issue. How many fast bowlers have said this would be a good idea for Shoaib? Five? Six? Sixty? How much does it matter? Numerous former players have commented on Sehwag's lack of footwork - I don't think I've ever heard anybody say that his footwork is fine. So what?

My point is that there's a natural assumption that Shoaib must adopt these strategies. I think that he's a magnet for criticism whatever he does - and I think it's largely motivated by problems perceived with his attitude and integrity. You're entitled to a different opinion, but you act as if anybody that disagrees must be in some form of childish denial like Shoaib obviously is. I don't see why.

Of course one can take that arguement to its "logical" infinite conclusion...six, sixty, six hundred, six thousand.....on and on. If thats the case, I have nothing to say.

I have nothing against Shoaib's attotude and I am not overly critical of him. He is one of my favourite cricketers in the world !!

It pains me to see him break down.

It pains me to see him compete with the speed gun when he has so much to give to the game by concentrating on competeing with the batsman.

It pains me to see that one of the most exciting prospects of our times may not fulfill its potential and

It pains me that this is because this childlike but highly gifted cricketer has not found someone whom he can trust enough to try something to solve his problems.

AND he does have problems...serious problems. If you think he has none then I rest my case.

[Slow Love™]

Originally Posted by SJS

Yes he is injury prone. So whats new? So is every fast bowler. But many of them realised what they had to do and prolonged their careers. There are dozens of examples. Both the run up and even more than that the action can cause severe strains and long term damage.

If Lillee had not been prepared to listen and change he would never have been able to come back from a crippling injury miraculously. If Shoaib is not willing to listen, it is his funeral. But this cant be commended as " the poor fellow is putting in so much hard work".

What Ponting and company say does not matter. No one is saying he should listen to them. That doesnt mean he should not listen to sound advise given by his well wishers just because an Australian or someone who is not a well wisher said it too. This is strange logic.

It's obviously a mischaracterisation to portray this issue as one of Shoaib putting his fingers in his ears and saying "naa naa, I won't listen". Nevertheless, this is how it's perpetually described, in spite of the fact that it's obvious that he HAS been willing to try using a shorter runup. It seems more likely to me that he has not found this to give him the same rhythm and power that his current runup allows him, at this stage. In fact, IIRC, he's been quite amenable to doing this a little further along in his career, just not now while he's still capable of being so quick.

Now, it's possible that if he sticks with this for a long period, it may pay dividends. It also may not. Rhythm is a hard thing for a bowler to keep, and sheer pace is still Shoaib's best weapon. The main issue I have with this argument is that it acts as if he has no understanding of his own requirements for how he bowls.

[SJS]

You ask, why can't he be? correct ? Why not indeed, but then again why cant he be wrong ? ?

[SJS]

Originally Posted by Slow Love™

Now, it's possible that if he sticks with this for a long period, it may pay dividends. It also may not. Rhythm is a hard thing for a bowler to keep, and sheer pace is still Shoaib's best weapon. The main issue I have with this argument is that it acts as if he has no understanding of his own requirements for how he bowls.

1. No one is saying he should not bowl fast. The question is whether he needs to run in at this speed from this distance to obtain that speed. Maybe he will run from another twent yards back and add another 10 miles to his speed. Kidding .

But the point is that those , like Tyson, whom I quoted and who was a very similar case to Shoaib in many respects, finally listened to what was being said, AND CUT DOWN HIS RUN UP, without affecting his speed. Shoaib needs to try it, NOT TO PROVE OTHERS RIGHT, but for his own longevity's sake. Thats all there is to it.

Yes maybe he has an understanding of his own requirements for how he bowls BUT then again, maybe he hasnt.

One thing that I have learnt is that, that which we have held longest to be true, is the opinion or method or view, most important for us to look at anew. Its our oldest beliefs that tend to let us down because we never ever question them.

[Slow Love™]

Originally Posted by SJS

Of course one can take that arguement to its "logical" infinite conclusion...six, sixty, six hundred, six thousand.....on and on. If thats the case, I have nothing to say.

You misunderstood here. The point is that I don't think there are anywhere near sixty. I think it's a fairly small sample. You're just pointing to the fact that, while there's a handful of fast bowlers making this comment about Shoaib, the fact that you can't come up with someone disagreeing (although off the top of my head, I think Kasprowicz might have) makes a very strong case - I don't think that kind of counting of anecdotal commentary does (and the same was true of opinions on Murali, IMO).

But as to having nothing against Shoaib's attitude, I would have thought that the claim that he's stupidly ignoring Imran Khan and some other fast bowler's advice is a criticism of his attitude.

Anyhow he's one of my favorite crickers too.

Originally Posted by SJS

AND he does have problems...serious problems. If you think he has none then I rest my case.

Bit of a straw man there, SJS, 'cause I never said that. I just don't agree that it's necessarily the case that he NEEDS to shorten his runup.

[Slow Love™]

Originally Posted by SJS

You ask, why can't he be? correct ? Why not indeed, but then again why cant he be wrong ? ?

Yes, that's why I said "Which is not to say that he can't be wrong, but why the automatic assumption that if he disagrees, he must be?"

I don't really have a problem with us disagreeing on this issue - the main thing I think that I was responding to most was the way you dismissed the other point of view so readily.

[SJS]

Originally Posted by Slow Love™

Bit of a straw man there, SJS, 'cause I never said that. I just don't agree that it's necessarily the case that he NEEDS to shorten his runup.

He needs to do anything that he can to prevent his breaking down and on the field it is his bowling which means his run up and his bowling action. This is just what I said in my first post here today.

Incidentaly, All those I have quoted and can quote more if anyone thinks it helps are fast bowlers over time. Tyson, Lillee, Imran, snow, Trueman, Bailey etc.

Bowling greats over five and a half decades. Surely their word carries enough weight not to be dismissed by a bowler who , you agree I see, has a problem. All I am saying is, he needs to try it out, in the nets, under the supervision of his coach sincerely and with full dedication and see if it works for him. For other than this he doesnt seem to have an idea as to what he is going to do. Just talking of "I nned to work on my fitness" or "which fast bowler does not have a fitness problem" is not going to help.

You know something. There is a terrific book by Rajan Bala called, The Covers Are Off'. It is a fantastic insight into the politics of Indian cricket.

In one place Nawab Pataudi Jr talks of Durrani and says something similar to (my words), "He is a very fine cricketer, a great all rounder. Bu he is not Garfield Sobers. He needs to realise that. He is very disappointed that he is not fulfilling his potential, I can understand that since his potential is enormous. But the way to do that is not to play up his tempramental nature and hide himself ehind his temprament. He needs to put in that extra effort that even genius needs to put in. He isnt willing to do that and puts on show his temprament as some kind of a positive"

I immediately thought of Shoaib.

Shoaib has a serious problem and if it is not sorted out , he may not last very long and that will be a massive tragedy and he will have himself to blame.

[SJS]

Originally Posted by Slow Love™

I don't really have a problem with us disagreeing on this issue - the main thing I think that I was responding to most was the way you dismissed the other point of view so readily.

I did that because when I first brought up this subject, I quoted some cricket writer and a forum member jumped at it disputing the credibility of the source to comment on fast bowling. So I went about looking at fast bowlers words on the subject. And now since it was Imran, a modern great, Shoaib's compatriot and since he was commenting directly on Shoaib, I rubbed it in

[Richard]

Originally Posted by wahindiawah

Akhtar can learn something from Irfan Pathan, and the thing he can learn is Irfan's good positive attitude, thats what Akhtar lacks. All this talk about long run up is old and useless as if the bowler himself is not comfortable with a shorter run up then its no point to reduce the run up.

Pathan, incidentally, could learn how to bowl well in Test-cricket.
A positive attitude is all well and good, but you need the ability first - and as of yet, Pathan hasn't got that.

[SJS]

BTW, one ex fast bowler who agrees with Shoaibs run up is former Pakistani bowler Sarfaraz Nawaz who claims to have designed Shoaib's run up.

[Beleg]

Sarfraz talks out of his butt, most of the time. [anyone who has heard his ideas on talk-forums and cricket commentary can, I am sure, attest to that]

[SJS]

Originally Posted by Beleg

Sarfraz talks out of his butt, most of the time. [anyone who has heard his ideas on talk-forums and cricket commentary can, I am sure, attest to that]

Yes he does

[Slow Love™]

Originally Posted by SJS

BTW, one ex fast bowler who agrees with Shoaibs run up is former Pakistani bowler Sarfaraz Nawaz who claims to have designed Shoaib's run up.

Yeah, I read about that earlier tonight. Apparently Imran insisted Akhtar shorten his runup back around '98 at a coaching camp Sarfraz was running, and Shoaib had a bit of a go at it but they (Shoaib and Sarfraz) weren't satisfied with the results. There's been something of a tussle on the issue between Sarfraz and Imran ever since, by the looks of things.

[SJS]

Originally Posted by Slow Love™

Yeah, I read about that earlier tonight. Apparently Imran insisted Akhtar shorten his runup back around '98 at a coaching camp Sarfraz was running, and Shoaib had a bit of a go at it but they (Shoaib and Sarfraz) weren't satisfied with the results. There's been something of a tussle on the issue between Sarfraz and Imran ever since, by the looks of things.

Thats interesting.
Imran and Sarfaraz never did get along from the time Imran ecame the skipper and dropped Sarfaraz.

[marc71178]

Originally Posted by nightprowler10

I say, leave the guy alone, and stop using him as a scapegoat for Pakistan's past failures, instead appreciate his efforts. Don't deny him the credit he's deserved for his efforts to win games for Pakistan. He's no Wasim Akram or Waqar Younis, but he gives it his very best.

Perhaps if he didn't make comments such as "having to carry the whole attack" he'd get more slack.