Fringe Aussie fringe Players who would excel in other teams..

[Richard]

Or maybe because that was the truth?

Yet before it was discovered people had to use other excuses...

 

[Richard]

We disagree. It's interesting that Mark Richardson and Adam Parore who both feature regularly on radio sport (in NZ) both were asked who the most terrifying bowler they faced was. Both answered Brett Lee. Its suprised me to be honest, I would have thought they might say Aktar. Particularly Richardson, who has often faced up to Aktar at his best.

Yet how many times did he get them out (and how many runs did he concede in doing so?; and how well did he do against other people?)
Cricket is not about scaring batsmen, it's about getting them out while conceding as few runs as you can - and since June 2001 Lee has been extremely poor at doing that.

 

[Richard]

Why do you always bring up oneday cricket when we are referring to test cricket??

Muddling the two game-forms is a useful tool to try and confuse the argument - better people than marc have done it.

 

[marc71178]

Sorry, but clearly when I refer to Flintoff being overated I'm talking test cricket.

Apologies, but it hasn't appeared clear to me.

 

[marc71178]

I think Brett Lee has more potential then Flintoff

I don't see where you get that from?

 

[tooextracool]

Surely current form must have some influence on selectors' thinking?

& I'd say Martyn would def make my World XI on current form, Kallis aside none of the perceived top batters (Tendulker, Dravid, Lara, Hayden or Ponting) had their best year in '04.

world XI team yes, but india wouldnt even think about dropping dravid for a second if they were offered martyn as an alternative. same for most of the other players in the list, bar hayden. you cannot drop players based on one slightly average year(and face it an average of 40 at the end of the year is still a good year), despite the fact thay they've been performing better than everyone else in all the other years.

 

[tooextracool]

I have broken it down, when Flitoff bowled against India it wasnt all that good. But when he bowls against one of the lower teams like the West Indies he has reasonable figures. If Lee were to play against Bangledesh and take a lot of wickets would that suddenly make him the best bowler.

how long before people realise that SA are still a fairly good team at home?
face it no matter how well someone plays against every team other than australia people are still going to say that they havent proven themselves.

 

[Zinzan]

I don't see where you get that from?

Its just one mans opinion. Its not like we are comparing Lara and Mcgrath as batsmen. I would have thought fans out there would be about 50/50 as far as who they think is the better bowler between Lee and flintoff.
Same as the Lara and Tendulkar thread. Just one mans opinion vs another.

So i don't know why your so surprised

 

[tooextracool]

except in this case, its a comparison between a rubbish bowler - lee compared to a fairly good bowler- flintoff. its more like saying gillespie and anderson are equal.

 

[Zinzan]

except in this case, its a comparison between a rubbish bowler - lee compared to a fairly good bowler- flintoff. its more like saying gillespie and anderson are equal.

Lee is not a rubbish bowler, he's just not quite good enough to make the Aussie test side at the moment (which Flintoff wouldn't either).

Here are their test bowling records....

Lee O M R W Ave BBI 5 10 SR Econ
Bowling 1230 256 4402 139 31.66 5-47 4 0 53.0 3.57

Flintoff
O M R W Ave BBI 5 10 SR Econ
Bowling 1317.5 298 3828 110 34.80 5-58 1 0 71.8 2.90

Lee has the better strike rate and average. Flintoff has the better economy....

I would have thought that this this could be argued either way.

 

[tooextracool]

and of course the fact that flintoff was picked too early in his career, when he was quite clearly rubbish means nothing doesnt it?
look lee has been rubbish for all of the last 4 years, so much so in fact that his average 16 in 00 to nearly 32 in 2004.

 

[chaminda_00]

Well before the last 4 series Flintoff was just a rubbish bowlers and rubbish batsmen, but England kept picking him. Who is to say Brett Lee will not improve the same way, just wait to the Ashes he will prove that and Aussie will prove that Flintoff is nothing more then an average All Rounder. The potenial i am talking about is the one he should at the start fo his career and during the 2003 WC. In that WC what did Flintoff do nothing, cus his useless aganist teams of quailty teams. If u say Flintoff was injured then i could say the same thing about Lee apart from the start of his career, the 2003 WC and now.

 

[tooextracool]

The potenial i am talking about is the one he should at the start fo his career and during the 2003 WC. In that WC what did Flintoff do nothing, cus his useless aganist teams of quailty teams. If u say Flintoff was injured then i could say the same thing about Lee apart from the start of his career, the 2003 WC and now.

yes so poor was flintoff in the 2003 world cup that he was the most economical bowler in the entire world cup?! with series figures of 20 @2.88.
and as far as his batting is concerned, he scored a 60 odd against india and a 45 against australia, so so much for the not performing against qusality teams.

 

[chaminda_00]

yes so poor was flintoff in the 2003 world cup that he was the most economical bowler in the entire world cup?! with series figures of 20 @2.88.
and as far as his batting is concerned, he scored a 60 odd against india and a 45 against australia, so so much for the not performing against qusality teams.

Wopes i was looking at his overall World Cup record not the 2003, sorry me bad. But anyway Brett Lee was still one of the leading wicket taker with 22 wickets. Only Chaminda Vaas beat him with 23 wickets. If Brett can repeat that from who is to say he can't end up as the one of the all time great quick bowlers.

 

[Dasa]

Wopes i was looking at his overall World Cup record not the 2003, sorry me bad. But anyway Brett Lee was still one of the leading wicket taker with 22 wickets. Only Chaminda Vaas beat him with 23 wickets. If Brett can repeat that from who is to say he can't end up as the one of the all time great quick bowlers.

Umm... Tests and ODIs are different. Lee may be effective in ODIs, but is basically rubbish in Tests... the current Flintoff is good in both, which is why I'd much rather Flintoff than Lee. That's just on bowling alone as well.

 

[Zinzan]

Umm... Tests and ODIs are different. Lee may be effective in ODIs, but is basically rubbish in Tests... the current Flintoff is good in both, which is why I'd much rather Flintoff than Lee. That's just on bowling alone as well.

IMO its simple.

Both are excellent oneday players - I'd say both would make any Oneday side in the world. And please no one suggest Lee wouldn't make the English One day side at the moment. He's great with the new ball and in the death overs and Flintoff is just a fantastic oneday player.

Both are good test players but not greats. Neither have consistently performed against the best opposition at test level.

Flintoff's test form has obviously been better Lee's of late, but Lee's has limited opportunity to play test cricket because the Aussie pace attack is just too good at the moment. As i've stated many times b4, IMO Flintoff wouldn't make the current Aust test team either.

Where could u fit Flintoff in their current TEST side??

Top 6 batsmen (All better far better batsmen than Flintoff)
+
Gilchrist (w.k)
+
4 Bowlers...... Mcgrath (alltime great) , Gillespie and Kaspa (both amazing stats in the last couple of years) and Warne (say no more)

Flintoff would be lucky to be 12th Man in this side which is ironically where Lee has generally been for the last few seasons.

 

[marc71178]

Lee is not a rubbish bowler, he's just not quite good enough to make the Aussie test side at the moment (which Flintoff wouldn't either).

Here are their test bowling records....

Lee O M R W Ave BBI 5 10 SR Econ
Bowling 1230 256 4402 139 31.66 5-47 4 0 53.0 3.57

Flintoff
O M R W Ave BBI 5 10 SR Econ
Bowling 1317.5 298 3828 110 34.80 5-58 1 0 71.8 2.90

Lee has the better strike rate and average. Flintoff has the better economy....

Lees average is climbing dramatically, Flintoff's is dropping dramatically.

 

[marc71178]

Flintoff's test form has obviously been better Lee's of late, but Lee's has limited opportunity to play test cricket because the Aussie pace attack is just too good at the moment.

And also when he does play, his Test record isn't very good, ever since that injury.

 

[chaminda_00]

Last time i checked current was the best indication of player's as well as his record aganist top opposition. Lee hasn't played a Test in over a year cus of injury and Kasa. So how can u say his current form is bad, the only cricket he has played resently is ODI and last time i checked his is the leading wicket taker in the VB Series.

Ok one day cricket and test different but if u don't look at Brett lee average, as most bowlers around the world have increase averages because of the wickets they play on. And look at his wicket per test which is 3.75, compare that to Flintoff 2.44. I wondering how many captain would give the bowl to Flintoff over Lee when they want a wicket. I think wickets per test is a greater incidation of a bowlers ability in test match. Over the last 5 Series Flintoff has improve this feature of his game to 3.5 but Brett is still better. Also in Brett last four series excluding Bangladesh he has taken 4 per Test, not too bad. That also including an Ashes series by the way

Overall who is to say that Brett wouldn't of improved his game the same amount that Flintoff has over the last 12 months. if a rubbish player like flintoff can improve so much im sure Lee can also improve.

 

[Dasa]

Last time i checked current was the best indication of player's as well as his record aganist top opposition. Lee hasn't played a Test in over a year cus of injury and Kasa. So how can u say his current form is bad, the only cricket he has played resently is ODI and last time i checked his is the leading wicket taker in the VB Series.

Ok one day cricket and test different but if u don't look at Brett lee average, as most bowlers around the world have increase averages because of the wickets they play on. And look at his wicket per test which is 3.75, compare that to Flintoff 2.44. I wondering how many captain would give the bowl to Flintoff over Lee when they want a wicket. I think wickets per test is a greater incidation of a bowlers ability in test match. Over the last 5 Series Flintoff has improve this feature of his game to 3.5 but Brett is still better. Also in Brett last four series excluding Bangladesh he has taken 4 per Test, not too bad. That also including an Ashes series by the way

Overall who is to say that Brett wouldn't of improved his game the same amount that Flintoff has over the last 12 months. if a rubbish player like flintoff can improve so much im sure Lee can also improve.

You can't look at it in pure figures. I think it's clear to anyone who has watched Lee play Tests in the last couple of years that he just isn't good enough. He leaks runs and is generally a liability to the Test side.