Shoaib or Hoggard ??

[marc71178]

Originally posted by cozmiccoyoete

Originally posted by marc71178
Hoggard took 9 wickets in the 3 Tests in India last winter, not world beating but it was still 3 more than any other seamer got (which works out as half as much againm and is equivalent to taking 30 when the next best takes 20)

I only said the names of Cork of Botham to prevent anyone asking who had beaten him.

Oh, and Cozmic, I'd describe Shoaib's performance against Australia (11 wickets in 5 Test's at an average of 59.72) as pretty awful.

Still he does redeem himself with his performance against the second best team in the World, South Africa. Against them it's 6 wickets in 3 Tests at 42.83!

So if you ignore the best 2 teams i the world he's got 52 wickets at an average of 22.04. Against the best 2 sides in the wortld he's got 17 wickets at 53.76.

Now try and tell me he's a world class bowler, and doesn't only get bowlers from the weak nations!

I hope u do consider Australia as a strong nation, Akhter destroyed them in just 15 balls, how many other pacers can do that, tell me?
PPl who just judge a player by his stats end up getting no where.The theory that Akhter had been getting wkts against NZ/Bang just coz of weak opponent has been proven wrong!

Now its time for Hoggard to prove himself, can he do for Eng what Akhter did for Pak ?? remains to be seen!

How old was my post - at the time it was correct. Should we now ban stats from the forum in case they change in the future?

 

[marc71178]

Originally posted by Tim
err shouldn't we be saying that Pakistan were the weaker opponents.
NZ is ranked 3rd in tests whereas Pakistan is 7th or 8th.

ROFLMAO!

 

[cozmiccoyoete]

[/quote]

How old was my post - at the time it was correct. Should we now ban stats from the forum in case they change in the future? [/quote]

What was correct at that time? Was Akhter a poor bowler at that time and has now dramatically become a fabulous one??

PPl shouldn't base their argument JUST on stats, thats what u did and u have been proven wrong.U ppl tend to write of cricketers just coz their stats were poor and when the same player prove u wrong , u come up with a reply " oh but at that time the stats said otherwise!

Dumb really

 

[basil]

Originally posted by Tim
err shouldn't we be saying that Pakistan were the weaker opponents.
NZ is ranked 3rd in tests whereas Pakistan is 7th or 8th.

NZ got pasted in that series by Pak, so much so for ur ranking.

 

[marc71178]

Originally posted by basil

Originally posted by Tim
err shouldn't we be saying that Pakistan were the weaker opponents.
NZ is ranked 3rd in tests whereas Pakistan is 7th or 8th.

NZ got pasted in that series by Pak, so much so for ur ranking.

Series never finished. 1 Test is not a series.

 

[marc71178]

Originally posted by cozmiccoyoete

How old was my post - at the time it was correct. Should we now ban stats from the forum in case they change in the future? [/quote]

What was correct at that time? Was Akhter a poor bowler at that time[/quote]

Shoaib had taken only 11 wickets at an average of 59.72 - you cannot argue a record like that is not awful.

At what point in that did I say he was a poor bowler?

And you call me dumb?

 

[Anil]

Hoggard is not much use on any wicket and/or conditions that doesn't support swing. Even in those conditions he hasn't always been that devastating(example: recent series with India). He has also been miserable in one dayers.

Shaoib is in great form right now and is the top bowler in his team in both tests and onedayers.

Although they are different types of bowlers, if you compare them as pace bowlers, Shaoib comes out miles in front on pretty much all counts.

 

[warrioryohannan]

Hoggard is not even a accomplished bowler yet!

[Edited on 17/10/2002 by warrioryohannan]

 

[cozmiccoyoete]

[quote

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Shoaib had taken only 11 wickets at an average of 59.72 - you cannot argue a record like that is not awful.

At what point in that did I say he was a poor bowler?

And you call me dumb?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Ur judgement were dumb and u seems to be sticking to it.My point is that u can't just judge a bowler by his stats alone.U had written Akhter off just because he had a poor record against Aus, u had suggested that Akhter was only performing against weak side, now we know where u stand!
Just because a bowler or a batter have an awful record against a side, doesn't mean he isn't good. Warne for one have an embaressing record against India, yet he's supposed to be the best leggie ever!

 

[Rik]

Hmmmm why is it that the brits and aussies allways make things into jokes while this guy (who Im sure is Nehrafan and something orother Yohannan) just plain attacks you saying your dumb, your an idiot and everything. Its silly, so please just realise this is a place where everyone has different opinions on things and please don't be so personal and have a go at people quite so violently! PLEASE!!

And if your gonna have a go at someone because of their opinion...please make sure that what you write in reply actually has anything to do with what the person 1st wrote...I mean I was being told I was dumb and thought McLean was the greatest bowler ever...when I said he had a good FC record and therefor he was attractive to Somerset as he won't be called up by the WIndies...and I get told Im dumb thinking McLean is the greatest bowler of all time and I didn't even mention the Indian Bowlers that time...please if your gonna have a go at me at least get an idea of what I wrote 1st...

[Edited on 17/10/2002 by Rik]

 

[V Reddy]

But shoiab doesn't have the consistency. He either takes wickets in a bundle or just doesn't . Whereas Hoggard performs consistently. He has not performed badly in a series yet . :P

 

[cozmiccoyoete]

Originally posted by Rik
Hmmmm why is it that the brits and aussies allways make things into jokes while this guy (who Im sure is Nehrafan and something orother Yohannan) just plain attacks you saying your dumb, your an idiot and everything. Its silly, so please just realise this is a place where everyone has different opinions on things and please don't be so personal and have a go at people quite so violently! PLEASE!!

Rik, aren't u urself getting personal?? ur claim that i'm nehrfan or yohannan is illfound, i for one don't give a damn who u are , silly how some people have wild imagination.

If Mark's feel offended then i appologize to him, actually i should have been careful, i never meant to insult him in the first place, just wanted to point out that judging a bowler by by his permorfance in 1 or 2 series is not wise!

 

[Rik]

Because your from India, you spell everything like Nehrafan and you have his opinions...thats quite a lot of reasons...although I'm sure you'll tell me I'm dumb anyway...even though I just made a valid point...

[Edited on 17/10/2002 by Rik]

 

[marc71178]

Ur judgement were dumb and u seems to be sticking to it.My point is that u can't just judge a bowler by his stats alone.U had written Akhter off just because he had a poor record against Aus, u had suggested that Akhter was only performing against weak side, now we know where u stand!

Well first, you can't spell the simple word "you"

As I have to state yet again, when I posted that, the facts were true. Things do change over time - try and grasp that fact. I had not "written him off", just pointed out a shocking set of figures.

 

[marc71178]

If Mark's feel offended then i appologize to him, actually i should have been careful, i never meant to insult him in the first place

So why call me dumb then?

If you stuck to arguing your point rationally instead of personal insults it'd be a much better debate.

For the record, at the time of my post, h had only performed against the weaker nations - and against the big 2, his record was pretty ordinary. That's not to say it won't change in the future.

 

[Top_Cat]

Unless this thread gets right back on track with debating the various merits of Hoggard vs Shoaib REAL quick, this thread is gone.

Enough with the bickering on BOTH sides, please. If you have personal problems with someone else, take it to email or U2U.

 

[cozmiccoyoete]

Originally posted by Rik
Because your from India, you spell everything like Nehrafan and you have his opinions...thats quite a lot of reasons...although I'm sure you'll tell me I'm dumb anyway...even though I just made a valid point...

[Edited on 17/10/2002 by Rik]

Nope i won't say you are dumb, just that u are not being wise.There are 1.2 billion people in India, just because i'm from India doesn't mean that i'm the person u are obsessed with.
Secondarily, atleast right now i'm in Malaysia! Also, i haven't been posting much lately, just posted on this topic and i haven't seen the guys u mentioned contributing to this topic.So how u came to the conclusion that ur opinions match is beyond my imagination!

Some guys can have wierd imagination, last night an American republican was asked as to what proof he had that Saddam and Osama had ties.The Republican replied, "well Saddam is a Sunni Moslem and so is Osama, and that's reason enough to reach such a conclusion" One would think that the guy was joking but he was dead serious, nothing can be done about guys like that.

 

[cozmiccoyoete]

Originally posted by


Well first, you can't spell the simple word "you"


So why call me dumb then?

If you stuck to arguing your point rationally instead of personal insults it'd be a much better debate.

For the record, at the time of my post, h had only performed against the weaker nations - and against the big 2, his record was pretty ordinary. That's not to say it won't change in the future.

My spellings are horrible, but its unfortunate that U urself cannot properly spell "He"!

I have already admitted my mistake for being rude, won't happen again!

[ As I have to state yet again, when I posted that, the facts were true. Things do change over time - try and grasp that fact. I had not "written him off", just pointed out a shocking set of figures.

Lets call off this debate , its going no where.The only thing that have changed since then is a bit of stats , Akhter got a five wkts in a short spell against Aus, its like Warne getting 5 wkts against India and someone saying, "yeah man now things have changed and we can accept him as a great leggie"

 

[onemangang]

Originally posted by vishnureddy
But shoiab doesn't have the consistency. He either takes wickets in a bundle or just doesn't . Whereas Hoggard performs consistently. He has not performed badly in a series yet . :P

9 wkts of 3 test matches in India, thats hardly impressive!!

The mistake that people make when they compare an English pacer with one from a subcontinent is that they overlook the fact that pacers from Subcontinent plays most of their cricket on dead pitches while English bowlers mostly plays on pacer friendly pitches.
Hoggard is a fine bowler, but had he played most of his cricket in Asia, his figures would have been dissapointing.Imagine Hoggard playing on the dusty pitches of Sri lanka/Sharjah/Pak. It would probably had opted out of the series!

 

[marc71178]

9 wkts of 3 test matches in India, thats hardly impressive!!

In mitigation here can I point out that that was still the best performance by an English bowler (despite the unfriendly conditions) and that also he was suddenly thrust into leading the attack for the first time, creating added pressure. In the circumstances I'd say that was still a good effort.