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Shoaib or Hoggard ??
- Thread starter Sulphate
- Start date
marc71178
Eyes not spreadsheets
Hoggard took 9 wickets in the 3 Tests in India last winter, not world beating but it was still 3 more than any other seamer got (which works out as half as much againm and is equivalent to taking 30 when the next best takes 20)
I only said the names of Cork of Botham to prevent anyone asking who had beaten him.
Oh, and Cozmic, I'd describe Shoaib's performance against Australia (11 wickets in 5 Test's at an average of 59.72) as pretty awful.
Still he does redeem himself with his performance against the second best team in the World, South Africa. Against them it's 6 wickets in 3 Tests at 42.83!
So if you ignore the best 2 teams i the world he's got 52 wickets at an average of 22.04. Against the best 2 sides in the wortld he's got 17 wickets at 53.76.
Now try and tell me he's a world class bowler, and doesn't only get bowlers from the weak nations!
I only said the names of Cork of Botham to prevent anyone asking who had beaten him.
Oh, and Cozmic, I'd describe Shoaib's performance against Australia (11 wickets in 5 Test's at an average of 59.72) as pretty awful.
Still he does redeem himself with his performance against the second best team in the World, South Africa. Against them it's 6 wickets in 3 Tests at 42.83!
So if you ignore the best 2 teams i the world he's got 52 wickets at an average of 22.04. Against the best 2 sides in the wortld he's got 17 wickets at 53.76.
Now try and tell me he's a world class bowler, and doesn't only get bowlers from the weak nations!
Ahktar has the advantage of sheer pace but needs to develop his skills with it. Having said that I believe he is bowling with better craft than since the last world cup (he reminded me then of Younis with those fast yorkers without the reverse swing), after which he fell into the trap of thinking he just had to bowl fast (probably where Lee is at now).
Hoggard does not have the blinding speed and so has needed to develop his craft sooner perhaps. I don't think he has the same role in the team as Ahktar as he is supposedly not the quickest in the England line up.
i think the final selection would come down to what role you envisaged for them & your attack, who your other available bowlers were, and where each of them were at with their game at the time.
regardless of your choice doesn't it make your mouth water in anticipation for both the ICC & World Cups with all these genuine quicks starting to appear.
Are we seeing the best crop & spread of quicks since the time of the '70s & '80s? (Lillee, Thompson, Marshall, Holding, Croft, Garner etc) - I for one hope so for Test cricket at least, (no disrespect to Akram, Younis).
All hail the return of the King!!!!
Hoggard does not have the blinding speed and so has needed to develop his craft sooner perhaps. I don't think he has the same role in the team as Ahktar as he is supposedly not the quickest in the England line up.
i think the final selection would come down to what role you envisaged for them & your attack, who your other available bowlers were, and where each of them were at with their game at the time.
regardless of your choice doesn't it make your mouth water in anticipation for both the ICC & World Cups with all these genuine quicks starting to appear.
Are we seeing the best crop & spread of quicks since the time of the '70s & '80s? (Lillee, Thompson, Marshall, Holding, Croft, Garner etc) - I for one hope so for Test cricket at least, (no disrespect to Akram, Younis).
All hail the return of the King!!!!
royGilchrist
State 12th Man
Last time Pak played Aus in tests, Shoaib's performance was anything but good. 5 wkts in 3 tests, I think, and a miserable average. M Waugh, Ponting, Blewitt, Slater, etc feasted on him.
He is made for ODI as its just ten overs and he can give it his all, but ODI means nothing really.
cozmiccoyoete
Banned
Marc,
When did i said that Shoaib was a world class bowler?? A bowler should atleast have played 25 tests before one could pass such a judgement!
Yeah Shoaib record against SA and Aus is poor, but what have Hoggard done against them? he haven't played yet, ok then why don't u just wait and see how well he performs.
Even though Akhter's overall performance against SA isn't good, he had one match winning spell of 5 wkts, after the match Cronje described him as amazing.Also Akhter did much better against India in India than Hoggard, so ur Hero even sucked against a weaker team(in ur opinion).
Akhter might fade away after he loses his pace, on the other hand he might become a better bowler by getting some variety in his bowling, too early to talk about it really!
When did i said that Shoaib was a world class bowler?? A bowler should atleast have played 25 tests before one could pass such a judgement!
Yeah Shoaib record against SA and Aus is poor, but what have Hoggard done against them? he haven't played yet, ok then why don't u just wait and see how well he performs.
Even though Akhter's overall performance against SA isn't good, he had one match winning spell of 5 wkts, after the match Cronje described him as amazing.Also Akhter did much better against India in India than Hoggard, so ur Hero even sucked against a weaker team(in ur opinion).
Akhter might fade away after he loses his pace, on the other hand he might become a better bowler by getting some variety in his bowling, too early to talk about it really!
marc71178
Eyes not spreadsheets
Akhtar did take 8 wickets in the match, but 30 of the 38 wickets to fall to bowlers went to the quicks, even Srinath took 8 in an innings!
When England toured India only 36 out of the 84 wickets taken by bowlers went to quicks.
This suggests that the conditions when England toured were somewhat more in favour of spinners than they were when Pakistan played India in a one-off game.
You really should consider facts before shooting your mouth off 8D
cozmiccoyoete
Banned
Mark,
The fact is that the QUALITY of the pacers in the series(Pak vs India) was totally different than the Indian-England series. Akram at his peak, Waqar, then Akhter.Srinath was CLASS bowler then, now the decline in his bowling is APPARENT.
What makes u think that India would have played Pak on a Green top wpitch??? are we nuts? No dear, Had Hoggard played in that series he wouldn't have done anything!
The fact is that the QUALITY of the pacers in the series(Pak vs India) was totally different than the Indian-England series. Akram at his peak, Waqar, then Akhter.Srinath was CLASS bowler then, now the decline in his bowling is APPARENT.
What makes u think that India would have played Pak on a Green top wpitch??? are we nuts? No dear, Had Hoggard played in that series he wouldn't have done anything!
Good point Cozmic.The last thing India would have done would have been to come up with a green top wkt against Pak.
As i said before Akhter haven't done much at test level, nor has he played much either.Ppl who are willing to write him of just coz he performed badly against Aussies 3 yrs back can't be taken seriously.U should remember that things have changed a lot since then, Akhter has improved as a bowler.If he has only performed against weak team, then so has Hoggard.On what basis are u regarding Hoggard so highly then???
Give both the bowlers some time, i'm sure they with improve and will prove their critics wrong ,provided they remain fit!
[Edited on 8/10/02 by yorker]
As i said before Akhter haven't done much at test level, nor has he played much either.Ppl who are willing to write him of just coz he performed badly against Aussies 3 yrs back can't be taken seriously.U should remember that things have changed a lot since then, Akhter has improved as a bowler.If he has only performed against weak team, then so has Hoggard.On what basis are u regarding Hoggard so highly then???
Give both the bowlers some time, i'm sure they with improve and will prove their critics wrong ,provided they remain fit!
[Edited on 8/10/02 by yorker]
Neil Pickup
Cricket Web Moderator
They are different bowlers, so it's difficult to make objective comparisons.
Shoaib should be compared with Bond, Lee, Jones (just throwing in an English example) where Hoggard is a similar type of bowler to McGrath etc (and I'm not suggesting for one minute he's as good as Glenn..)
Shoaib should be compared with Bond, Lee, Jones (just throwing in an English example) where Hoggard is a similar type of bowler to McGrath etc (and I'm not suggesting for one minute he's as good as Glenn..)
marc71178
Eyes not spreadsheets
Surely the sheer fact that more than 3 quarters of the wickets fell to seamers whereas less than half of those in the England tour fell to seamers shows that there was some bias towards the quicks with that wicket?
Just having another look at the scorecard, I note that Srinath had 5 in the first innings as well.
Good bowler as he is, there is no way in the world you can convince me that he took 13 wickets in a match on a pitch that didn't aid seamers as supposed to spinners.
Just having another look at the scorecard, I note that Srinath had 5 in the first innings as well.
Good bowler as he is, there is no way in the world you can convince me that he took 13 wickets in a match on a pitch that didn't aid seamers as supposed to spinners.
cozmiccoyoete
Banned
Mark-- Zaheer Khan/hoggard are good bowlers , Nath was a GREAT bowler.Thats the difference!
wasims_fan
School Boy/Girl Cricketer
I think that Shoaib has the power to change the game at any time because of his aggressiveness and powerful bowling with furious pace that can get the batsmen off their feet while Hoggard is just a simple, orthodox and an overrated bowler in my opinion. 8D
Neil Pickup
Cricket Web Moderator
And what do you base this on then?!
cozmiccoyoete
Banned
I hope u do consider Australia as a strong nation
, Akhter destroyed them in just 15 balls, how many other pacers can do that, tell me?PPl who just judge a player by his stats end up getting no where.The theory that Akhter had been getting wkts against NZ/Bang just coz of weak opponent has been proven wrong!
Now its time for Hoggard to prove himself, can he do for Eng what Akhter did for Pak ?? remains to be seen!