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In the wake of India's refusal to play Pakistan Should Pakistan Play them in The ICC or the WC?

anzac

International Debutant
hey i just think it's great that we can express ourselves in this forum thru this game as adults - even if some of our bretheren can't see that far.

Dialogue should be encouraged - what if they gave a war and nobody came???????

Mankind as a species will never amount to bugger all until we can get past our shortcomings - our intolerance towards others via nationalism, politics & religion.

Bottom line we are all one people and should grow up and behave as such. Maybe ET needs to come on down and give us some whoop ass and knock some sence upside our heads!!!!

(Hey be afraid folks, be very afraid - I'm one of those dangerous loonies - an idealistic dreamer - for which I refuse to conform or make any apologies)!!!!!

:laugh:
 

Gotchya

State Vice-Captain
hey i just think it's great that we can express ourselves in this forum thru this game as adults - even if some of our bretheren can't see that far.
Exactly the point i was trying to make.
Intelligent argument is always alwyas welcome, but i have seen many discussions like these diverge towards ugly neds, which is what i was trying to avoid.

Hey be afraid folks, be very afraid - I'm one of those dangerous loonies - an idealistic dreamer - for which I refuse to conform or make any apologies
Well you can fly as high as you want and dream all that you want, but you cannot possibly have any appreciation or apprehension of the ground realities.A word of expeience, when the spell of idealism does break, believe me these realities hit you hard!!
 

anzac

International Debutant
sorry Gotcha - been there, done that, seen the movie, read the book & got the T-shirt.

I've spent the best part of 20 years as a pessimist (???) (mainly in relation to my previous occupations and various personal issues), and I have decided it is just too much hard work to work (if you follow).

My philosophy is yes it's a ****ty old world and far from perfect, but we should take more time out to stop and admire the view as we go thru life - otherwise what's the point???

if we do not strive to better ourselves as both individuals and as a species then we have already given up and have 1 foot in the grave.

I believe that there is more to life than just living and repeat my earlier comments re mankind not amounting to much etc - I actually think John Lennon said it better (Imagine).

I am aware that the situation is much more than just a border conflict - that just happens to be the latest excuse - the relationship between Israel & the Palestinians springs to mind as a comparisson.

Perhaps my clumsy attempt to lighten the issue on what I hoped was a more positive note was ill founded - I was not attempting to belittle the situation, but sometimes we get too hung up on the details to see the bigger picture.

Having said that I don't think I'll be changing my philosophy anytime soon, as I refuse to let the buggers stop me from enjoying my time here or my sport - cricket or otherwise!!!

In the meantime my friend - don't let the bastards get you down and always come back smiling (it really messes with their heads!!!)

"Live Long and Prosper"



:) :) :) :)
 

anzac

International Debutant
just to get back onto the original question - yes they should play.

Pakistan are in danger of isolating themselves from having any real contribution to world cricket if they start trying to play too many mind games with everyone.

Politics aside they already have the current situation re tours V India, and earlier this week they were calling for an Asian cricket boycott of Australia if Australia do not tour there this year.

I'm intrigued as to who they think would support them in this - not India, Sri Lanka? - doubtful, Bangladesh? - quite frankly at this stage who would care?

In light of this weeks attacks at a catholic school run by Australians for mainly overseas students - I don't blame the ACB for cancelling regardless of who was the target.

I appreciate that Pakistan are loosing revenue re cancelled home tours, but they need to get their house in order b4 the caucasian cricket nations will feel safe in this post 9/11 climate. A case of you lie down with dogs.

If cricket is the political pawn re India, then perhaps the Pakistani cricket board should be re-evaluating their policy with their government because of 9/11. The cricket world got by quite nicely without SA because of their politics so I don't think Pakistan are in any position to be throwing stones in glass houses. If push came to shove I think I know where my money would be re the outcome!!!!!
 

full_length

U19 Vice-Captain
well, this is a late entry into the discussion- just saw it.

I think everyone is falling into the trap of just blindly labelling politicians corrupt, selfserving, etc. etc.

Uma Bharati (sports minister) of India put forth valid reasons for the action of the Indian govt. It looks like most columnists who write about this havent seen ANY statements from the government at all. I don't think that's very smart.

If you jog your memory a little bit, you would remember terms like 'cricket diplomacy' from the Pak govt side. The moment one of the goverments put cricket in that sort of a stature (and this happened decades ago), it becomes more than 'just a game' and has ALREADY been mixed with politics!
Uma Bharati's comments suggested that the goverment didnt take lightly quotes from Pakistan govt in international summits to the effect "see we are even playing cricket. there is no problem of cross border terrorism". Like a couple of posters here have been kind enough to suggest, it is not correct to trivialise the situation at the LoC (line of control).

I will paste a few quotes here for your perusal. Maybe this could add another dimension to the current discussion which largely talks about two things- sport and politics shouldnt be mixed, and emotions.

Q: You have been increasingly taking an activist stance in cricket affairs, is this the prelude to a government take over of the game?

"No," the minister said, with utmost emphasis. "We have absolutely no interest in taking over cricket, we are content to let the Board run the game. But I must add something -- the board has been getting all kinds of facilities and concessions from the government, like grounds at very low leases, tax benefits, things like that. The board is given these facilities because the government wants the board to use its grounds and its money to popularise cricket. It is a national obsession, a national religion.

"What we want is to see little children playing it in the villages -- and that is what the board is supposed to do. It cannot be a game for the cities, and a means for the board to make money, that is what I told Muthiah. If that happens, if we see that happening, then we will step in and rap them on the knuckles if we have to."

Q: The other question, the obvious one in fact, was this whole question of playing Pakistan. And again, Ms Bharti was very clear in her views.

"First, I have to point out that the ministry for sports is not the decision-maker in this issue. We get proposals from the BCCI, and all we do is pass it on to the ministry for external affairs. It is the MEA that takes the final decision -- I as minister for sports do have my opinion, and I forward it to the MEA in the form of a note, but the final decision rests with Jaswant Singh and his ministry.

"But as a member of the Cabinet, I am naturally privy to our government's thinking on the issue. And in this capacity, there are a couple of points that need to be made. Cricket is identified with our country, it is a very emotive game for us. So playing cricket against someone with whom we are on terms of enmity has implications that are greater than playing hockey or football or some other game.

"Also, in the past, when we have played Pakistan, that country has used it for propaganda, even at the United Nations level. 'Where is there any problem between India and Pakistan, see, we are even playing cricket together,' they've argued from official platforms. So when it comes to cricket, the government is very careful about what it will permit and what it will not permit."
So you see, it is a little more complicated than evil, self serving politicians. The 'right thing' is not as clear as most writers tend to indicate.

My opinion: In the present situation (post Kargil) the Indian Govt.'s stand is totally acceptable. I back it.
I would enjoy seeing India playing Pakistan. Like I said in sports.com earlier, one of the most memorable days in Chennai for me was that match with Pak. I was amongst those that stood up and gave Pakistan a standing ovation when they beat us by a margin of 12 runs. Everything about that match is imprinted in memory. I havent ever seen a video of that either. MANY people have such memories of cricket between two countries. But you see, when things go beyond cricket, we have to think twice. One country cannot continue to use cricket in diplomacy and other continue to ignore it. Similarly, if cricket is used in propaganda after a fresh spate of body bags, to suggest all's well, that is most distastefull to me.
So will people stop suggesting: look at their players- they are so similar to us, they speak in Hindi in interviews, play attacking cricket like us (there is a lot of similarity here, and a LOT that we have in common in terms of intent, is at odds with teams like England, NZ, SA, Zim)? I dont think so (the debate on idealism/realism?). Considering this, I must say that the media can go hang. They have failed, to date, to see the six points of view: the govts, boards, players of both nations and come up with a balanced judgement. This is especially true for international media, that seldom bothers to research when they write about the subcontinent.
 

scorpio

U19 Cricketer
Good post full length.

The bottom line of this whole mess is that Politicians of both sides are using the high profile cricket enjoys to score brownie points.
 

aussie_beater

State Vice-Captain
This whole "putting politics aside" is a diversion....there is no way politics can be put aside when India-Pak relations are being talked about, be it cricket or border disputes.

Indian and Pakistani people are crazy about cricket but cricket is a sport and is a pastime to be engaged in good times, and not something that transcends life and death issues.

In the case of India and Pak, there are body bags of soldiers and civilians alike, being transported to their next of kin by the droves every single day because of conflict between the two countries.In that situation out of respect for the people who die and their kith and kin, atleast we shouldn't amuse ourselves by enacting some kind of farce at a cricket field.

I am of the opinion that India should stop playing all other sports with Pakistan and not just cricket, till atleast we get back to a situation like the eighties when things weren't this bad.If we have to play Pakistan in international tournaments like World cup et al. for all sports including cricket, then we may relent on this issue given the fact that a move to not play may have much wider repurcussions.That's what even the United States does when it comes to playing Iran.

Actually for all other sports as well India plays Pak in international tournaments only, I believe.I don't think India's hockey team is touring Pak to play a series of matches.




[Edited on 8/10/02 by aussie_beater]
 

anzac

International Debutant
ok so i take it then that this means 'NO' - that Pakistan should NOT play India at either the ICC or WC

:)
 

anzac

International Debutant
ok so i take it then that this means 'NO' - that Pakistan should NOT play India at either the ICC or WC

:)
 

anzac

International Debutant
ok so politics can't be put aside

i take it then that this means 'NO', that Pakistan should NOT play India at either the upcoming ICC or WC

just to clarify a point, from the previous posts it would appear that it is India that refuses to play Pakistan - is this the case or is it mutual?

:I
 

anzac

International Debutant
sorry all

didn't mean to post that 3 times - been having trouble with the connection this morning

:P :P
 

Speedzone

Cricket Spectator
I'm dead against any sports b/w the two country, i don't know why they are playing other sports.When the two country are at war then how can u play ??
I don't know why some of my country men wants to see their team play with India.In the last World cup, Pak lost to India and Waseem Akram made a great gesture by congratulating the Indian team, despite this, the Indian media painted the Victory as if India had won a war!
When Pak visited India the last time, the Pitch at Mumbai was dug up, there was threat to their lives.The then PM of Pak had to ask the then captain Waseem Akram as to whether he wanted to go ahead with the tour.Waseem went ahead, would an Indian had done the same had he been in his shoes? NO.
The last match that i watched in a stadium, was b/w India A and Pak A.Even though Indian A team was winning the match, the crowd was giving the Indian team a standing ovation.Interestingly Rohan Gavaskar was the darling of the masses, not coz he was great in the match but only coz his dad happen to be very popular in PK.Mr Gavaskar ended up by with some rude gestures to his fans.

In the WC, Pak and Ind will have to play as they can't afford to miss such a match.But otherwise they don't need to play atall, as for Pak's current position, they have to realise that they can't play matches at home for some time, whether India visit them or not is not going to help their cause much, coz Aus and Eng are not going to tour untill the al-quida network have been rooted out completely!
 

yorker

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
Welcome to the board Speedzone.

Well, when someone doesn't wanna play then u can't force em.India last played in Pak 13 long yrs back, so if Uma Bharti wanna go with a such an old statement, then its fine with me.

Just for the records, Iran and US haven't been just playing in World cup matches, they have been playing wrestling too!
 

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