So the ICC evidence is finally in - and apparently even Glen McGrath chucks...

[Slow Love™]

http://aus.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/C...10NOV2004.html

Extensive research conducted by the International Cricket Council has revealed that 99% of bowlers in the history of cricket have been chuckers. The study was undertaken in the wake of the furore surrounding Muttiah Muralitharan, whose doosra was banned earlier this year after Chris Broad, the match referee for the Tests against Australia, reported it to the ICC.

But an article by Derek Pringle in The Daily Telegraph suggests that Murali is no different from the vast majority of his fellow players. The current law states that there should be no straightening or partial straightening of the bowling arm during delivery, and research conducted with precise instrumentation has revealed that even bowlers like Glenn McGrath and Shaun Pollock, considered examplars of the classical action, occasionally go over the prescribed tolerance limit, bending their arms by as much as 12 degrees.

The tolerance levels had been set at five degrees for spinners, seven-and-a-half for medium-pacers, and 10 for quick bowlers, a scenario that had invited much criticism from past greats like Ian Chappell. But the study conducted by three prominent biomechanics experts suggests that the human eye can only detect a kink in the action if the straightening is more than 15 degrees.

As Angus Fraser - one of six former Test cricketers on the committee that reviewed illegal bowling actions in Dubai recently - wrote in The Independent, even the likes of Fred Trueman, Dennis Lillee, Curtly Ambrose, Imran Khan, Richard Hadlee, and Ian Botham were found to have exceeded the straightening-limit set by the ICC.

The biomechanics men - Dr Marc Portus, Professor Bruce Elliott and Dr Paul Hurrion - used cameras shooting at 250 frames per second – ten times the speed of a TV camera – to illustrate phenomena like adduction and hyperextension which can convince an observer watching without the aid of technology that the bowler is chucking.

Research was also undertaken during the ICC Champions Trophy in England, where it was found that 13 of the 23 bowlers filmed straightened their arms more than the current permissible levels. Ramnaresh Sarwan, he of the fairly innocuous legspin, was the only man observed who didn't straighten his arm at all.

Based on these findings, the ICC is to extend the tolerance limit to 15 degrees for all bowlers, regardless of whether they bowl at Shane Warne's pace or Shoaib Akhtar's. Match officials will still be expected to note down suspicious actions, and pass on the information to the ICC. But unlike before, remedial action will now be the sole preserve of a new body to the set up to help bowlers with the rehabiliation process.

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Sounds fair enough to me. I've doubted Murali's legitimacy in the past, but these figures can't be ignored, IMO.

[maxpower]

Its a good start by ICC to get chucking issue resolved. However I still see no end to this issue, even after they make the limit to 15 deg, I bet some old timers will say oh now a days everyone chucks, and all kinda BS. To them I say shut up bedi

[Son Of Coco]

Originally Posted by Slow Love™

http://aus.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/C...10NOV2004.html

Extensive research conducted by the International Cricket Council has revealed that 99% of bowlers in the history of cricket have been chuckers. The study was undertaken in the wake of the furore surrounding Muttiah Muralitharan, whose doosra was banned earlier this year after Chris Broad, the match referee for the Tests against Australia, reported it to the ICC.

But an article by Derek Pringle in The Daily Telegraph suggests that Murali is no different from the vast majority of his fellow players. The current law states that there should be no straightening or partial straightening of the bowling arm during delivery, and research conducted with precise instrumentation has revealed that even bowlers like Glenn McGrath and Shaun Pollock, considered examplars of the classical action, occasionally go over the prescribed tolerance limit, bending their arms by as much as 12 degrees.

The tolerance levels had been set at five degrees for spinners, seven-and-a-half for medium-pacers, and 10 for quick bowlers, a scenario that had invited much criticism from past greats like Ian Chappell. But the study conducted by three prominent biomechanics experts suggests that the human eye can only detect a kink in the action if the straightening is more than 15 degrees.

As Angus Fraser - one of six former Test cricketers on the committee that reviewed illegal bowling actions in Dubai recently - wrote in The Independent, even the likes of Fred Trueman, Dennis Lillee, Curtly Ambrose, Imran Khan, Richard Hadlee, and Ian Botham were found to have exceeded the straightening-limit set by the ICC.

The biomechanics men - Dr Marc Portus, Professor Bruce Elliott and Dr Paul Hurrion - used cameras shooting at 250 frames per second – ten times the speed of a TV camera – to illustrate phenomena like adduction and hyperextension which can convince an observer watching without the aid of technology that the bowler is chucking.

Research was also undertaken during the ICC Champions Trophy in England, where it was found that 13 of the 23 bowlers filmed straightened their arms more than the current permissible levels. Ramnaresh Sarwan, he of the fairly innocuous legspin, was the only man observed who didn't straighten his arm at all.

Based on these findings, the ICC is to extend the tolerance limit to 15 degrees for all bowlers, regardless of whether they bowl at Shane Warne's pace or Shoaib Akhtar's. Match officials will still be expected to note down suspicious actions, and pass on the information to the ICC. But unlike before, remedial action will now be the sole preserve of a new body to the set up to help bowlers with the rehabiliation process.

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Sounds fair enough to me. I've doubted Murali's legitimacy in the past, but these figures can't be ignored, IMO.

Fair enough I guess. I never really thought chucking referred to the arm bending past the elbow's natural ability to straighten due to stress, but anyway, they know a lot more about what they're talking about than me. I just think there's a bit of a difference between an arm starting straight and bending past that, and someone bend their arm towards the shoulder and then back to, or past, straight. (I don't mean Murali here either as I'm not sure either way with him, but wouldn't be bold enough to say it's illegal after all the testing he's done).

Does it open the floodgates for dodgy actions though? There's a guy that chucks in second grade around here and it's not due to hyperextension, there's claims that he's been tested and cleared (in third grade mind you, as if anyone would bother watching him haha). I find it a bit of a concern that the incidence of birth defects etc leading to bent elbows has increased dramatically in the last few years.

[Majin]

*******, I was gonna post this. It made me laugh. Old timer's can't say **** all because the study said that 99% of bowlers in history are chuckers. That includes all the old timers anyway. In fact the only bowler in history to never chuck at all is Ramnaresh Sarwan. I say all wickets should be disallowed and Ramna should take his rightful place as the bowler with most wickets in all forms of the game. What a legend.

[Son Of Coco]

Originally Posted by Majin

*******, I was gonna post this. It made me laugh. Old timer's can't say **** all because the study said that 99% of bowlers in history are chuckers. That includes all the old timers anyway. In fact the only bowler in history to never chuck at all is Ramnaresh Sarwan. I say all wickets should be disallowed and Ramna should take his rightful place as the bowler with most wickets in all forms of the game. What a legend.

hahahaha, that's a great suggestion! And everyone should have to model their actions on his so that we have a bunch of people bowling that are completely indistinguishable from each other (thus causing the scoreboard attendants to lean out and scream 'BOWLERS NAAAAAAME' like we have to down at cricket on a Saturday!)

[wpdavid]

So now umpires just have to decide whether a bowler straightens his arm by more than 15 degrees. No problem there, then.

[honestbharani]

I think they should introduce something called a BOWLING LICENCE, to get which the person has to bowl legal deliveries, without straightening his arm by more than 15 degrees. Kinda like a driving licence. Others should not bowl.

[Steulen]

Being a scientist in a related field, I'm very happy with the outcome, but even more with the apparent willingness of the ICC to accept these results.

Normally, stuff like this is hotly debated by people who "know better" because their uncle once played in the same team as Murali's American penpal named Chuck, or even worse, ex Test cricketers who just know more about the game than anyone else, m'kay?

Hooray for empirical evidence!

[kasra]

Will the critics of Murali's action (in this forum and elsewhere) primarily from Australia now apologise for unfairly and unjustifiably persecuting him for almost 10 years?

And for Ian Botham, who without any integrity refused to consider Murali for the ICC awards this year was found to be a chucker. What a hypocrite! Will he be the first to apologise?

[garage flower]

Originally Posted by Son Of Coco

Fair enough I guess. I never really thought chucking referred to the arm bending past the elbow's natural ability to straighten due to stress, but anyway, they know a lot more about what they're talking about than me. I just think there's a bit of a difference between an arm starting straight and bending past that, and someone bend their arm towards the shoulder and then back to, or past, straight.

Be gentle with me if I'm being thick, but from the posted extract I'm assuming they are talking about bending back to the shoulder, or being bent back to the shoulder, and then straightening.

[Steulen]

Ahh...the first demented idiot whinger has reported for duty, it seems. According to the BBC website, Geoff Boycott thinks it's a "sad day for cricket". How thick can you get? The alternative is that his mum has to do all the bowling because the others have been banned. Oh...in tandem with Ramnaresh Sarwan of course

[Scaly piscine]

Originally Posted by Steulen

Ahh...the first demented idiot whinger has reported for duty, it seems. According to the BBC website, Geoff Boycott thinks it's a "sad day for cricket". How thick can you get? The alternative is that his mum has to do all the bowling because the others have been banned. Oh...in tandem with Ramnaresh Sarwan of course

I don't see your problem with the quote... more your problem with the man behind it.

[Steulen]

Originally Posted by Scaly piscine

I don't see your problem with the quote... more your problem with the man behind it.

You may be right .

Boycott, to me, personifies the old geezer who knows best, refuting all evidence to the contrary of his opinions. Someone who doesn't need proof or a change of mind because his views are set in concrete based on his own experience and prejudice.

There is now sound, scientific evidence that it's nearly impossible to abide by the rules if you're a bowler, and that accusations of chucking are largely based on optical illusions and distorted viewpoints.

To call that "a sad day for cricket" angers my puny little empirical mind

[Son Of Coco]

Originally Posted by garage flower

Be gentle with me if I'm being thick, but from the posted extract I'm assuming they are talking about bending back to the shoulder, or being bent back to the shoulder, and then straightening.

I don't think that's what hyperextension is referring to, but adduction? I thought they were talking about an arm going some degrees past straight when force is applied thus creating the difference between the original position and the position midway through (when talking about hyperextension).......I don't really know.

[marc71178]

Originally Posted by wpdavid

So now umpires just have to decide whether a bowler straightens his arm by more than 15 degrees. No problem there, then.

Until they call someone, who then complains that 15 isn't enough, and it's discrimination to not change it.