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Thread: The famed Indian batting line up !!

  1. #1
    SJS
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    The famed Indian batting line up !!

    There have been lots of brickbats (well deserved) for Parthiv Patel on this forum and at least one passionate 'plea' in his favour (more emotionally charged than otherwise). However, the fact of the matter is that India is in this sorry state of affairs, at the time of writing, in this series not because of Parthiv's keeping (pathetic though its been) but the amazing failure of its much acclaimed batting line up.

    Before we start talking of wickets, quality of Australian bowling, bad luck with the toss etc etc, let me clarify that I dont think this is a better Australian attack than 2001. They are more disciplined and cool headed, yes . But better as in bowling more unplayable deliveries, more penetration etc etc, NO SIR . The wickets have been fine. No better or worse than one has seen before in India and the toss has not been THE decisive factor . In the second test, India was in a position to press for a possible victory, inspite of losing the toss, and here in Nagpur, it wouldnt have been surprising (or wrong) if Rahul (had he won the toss) had decided to have a bowl.

    More than all this, what really exposes the terrible terrible performance of India's top order is the performance of its lower order. In four completed innings so far, the first five wickets have yielded a grand total of 521 runs (avg 129.25 for 5 !!). Only once have we crossed 125 before losing the fifth wicket ! On the other hand, the last five wickets have yielded 525 runs (avg 130) adding 122, 158, 163 1nd 82 runs in the four innings so far !!

    Surely, neither the wickets, nor the Australian bowling can explain India's batting debacle being limited to the top order only. In fact, at least on three occasions, it has been the advent of the new ball that had ended the fightback of the Indian tail.

    So whats ailing team India.

    There is so much talk of what Ganguly and the new management has done for the Indian team. I am one of those who believes it to be true to an extent. Building team spirit, belief in their abilities, a positive , aggressive, almost Aussie like approach to the game, a confidence in their team by the management that was missing from earlier Indian teams. Look at what happened in this last innings of India and ask yourselves, how much of this is in evidence in the Indian top order.

    Where is the confidence in Laxman's batting ? Where is the aggression in Dravid's and Sachin's approach ? Where is the management's confidence in its opening batsman (one test per trial !) ? Does this look like a team that believes it can take on the Aussies ? I dont think the Aussies bowled as well as their figures suggest. They were ALLOWED to dictate. Warne did bowl his quota of short pitched as well as full toss deliveries but with one exception of a pull from Patel and a drive from Kaif, no one was in the mode to take advantage of them. When that happens, the loose balls dry up. The length improves.

    Warne has pitched up more in this innings than so far in this series and the reason is that no one has shown the slightest propensity to take him on and drive him as they would have done earlier.

    There is something terribly wrong with team India. Much more than Patel's keeping, much more than Sachin's prolonged absence and much more than bad form. This is a team that doesnt seem to believe it can take on the Aussies and no team in that frame of mind can even get close to challenging them.

    PS : BTW, the only time the first five wickets added a reasonable score was the 213 in the first innings at Chennai. A point to note here, however, is the role played by night watchman and lower order batsman, Irfan Pathan in salvaging the innings in a second wicket partnership with Dravid !!
    Last edited by SJS; 29-10-2004 at 12:15 AM.

  2. #2
    International Captain masterblaster's Avatar
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    I think Sanjay Manjrekar put it best when he said the selectors must 'broaden the net' or something along those lines.

    We've seen the same old faces play for India regardless of the outcome for the last 2-3 years, and I do believe, that there are better alternatives hidden in domestic cricket then the ones we have.

    The selectors, the captain and the coach need to broaden their horizons a little bit, and get rid of this 'excess junk' which surrounds this Indian lineup. Not naming names, but the alternatives need a try out atleast.
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    School Boy/Girl Captain thirdumpire's Avatar
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    something happened during the long break after the victorious Pak series ....its been a steady downhill after that

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    SJS
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    I seem to get a feeling this is not just to do with form. I think Team India is less of a team today as compared to this time last year.

    There is no specific reason to pin point but its a funny feeling I get. Suddenly you dont get that feeling of 'one-ness'. If I have to make a guess, I would say there are divisions between the seniors (skipper versus the rest) on important matters. I somehow get a feeling, Ganguly is getting a bit isolated and this , even if a 'feeling' , can affect the overall mood and hence the performance of the team.

    Too much has been said from around the third test in Pakistan about who should open, for example. Suddenly , out of the blue, Ganguly dropped Chopra and even more 'out-of-the-blue' as it were proposed Yuvraj for opening.

    This provoked a strange but immediate response from Sehwag making clear who he prefered as a partner. This is not normal. This kind of airing of differences with the skipper. Immediately followed, if I remember right, Sehwag's assertion that he would still prefer to bat in the middle.

    Chopra and Sehwag are from the same state, had by that time enjoyed fairly good success as a test opening pair.

    Then there was the incident of the declaration with Sachin closing in on a double hundred. It is widely talked of as a decision taken by Dravid on being prompted by Ganguly. This may or may not be true. But the fact of the matter is that the only reason it did not blow into such a big issue was Dravid's personal image and standing with everyone, least of all the public at large. Its extremely unlikely that the public, and ex cricketers etc. would have been as charitable if this had come from Ganguly as captain. Still it provoked a totally uncharachterstic response from Sachin. It was closed soon but it left a lingering air of ....

    I will not be surprised if the selection committee is not the only place where Parthiv's inclusion was hotly debated. In a team which is full of superstars who have a lot of clout in their own capacity, it could be a major bone of contention.

    I dont know how Kumble feels about having a keeper who seems to have no clue about his bowling after so many tests. It cant be a great feeling if you felt, as the premier bowler, that this situation needs to be 'remedied' and find that its vetoed by one individual all the time.

    I know this sounds like reading a lot between nothing, but somehow, the body language, the facial expressions, the sound bites coming out of the Indian camp (not just the performance) after the tour to Pakistan have me thinking something is badly amiss.

    Hope I am wrong but I doubt it.


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    Cricketer Of The Year Arjun's Avatar
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    Tendulkar, Laxman and Dravid have proven themselves for a long time, and have done a lot more for the team than players you would brand as "Dead Wood". Ask Dileep from Wisden. Although they need rest (at least one of them), they're not your average batsman, and are all of World XI class. The rest? The A-team batsmen may soon find themselves in India uniforms. Or BCCI uniforms? RSM, please clarify.
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    SJS
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arjun
    Tendulkar, Laxman and Dravid have proven themselves for a long time, and have done a lot more for the team than players you would brand as "Dead Wood". Ask Dileep from Wisden. Although they need rest (at least one of them), they're not your average batsman, and are all of World XI class. The rest? The A-team batsmen may soon find themselves in India uniforms. Or BCCI uniforms? RSM, please clarify.
    huh !

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    Cricketer Of The Year Arjun's Avatar
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    Since returning to Test cricket, Laxman has averaged 56, and has played a long innings to get the team out of trouble many times. Dravid has weathered the storm regularly, which is why he has that average of 56. With 33 Test centuries, Sachin should definitely walk into a World XI. What great thing have the other batsmen done? They're all one-innings wonders!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arjun
    Since returning to Test cricket, Laxman has averaged 56, and has played a long innings to get the team out of trouble many times. Dravid has weathered the storm regularly, which is why he has that average of 56. With 33 Test centuries, Sachin should definitely walk into a World XI. What great thing have the other batsmen done? They're all one-innings wonders!
    huh huh !!

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    The batting has failed but its the same players that played in asutralia and pakistan apart from obviously the whole yuvraj and chopra musical chairs. Sachin was injured and Laxman simply can't get going and even Dravid hasn't been scoring the big hundreds.

    I think Chopra has really been messed around. He must have left Australia full of confidence and must have thought he and Sehwag were going to be a formidable partnership. Since then he has been a victim of some bad umpiring decisions and also the ridiculous idea that Yuvraj can be a test opener. If Chopra was never dropped he would still have that confidence. Now every time he goes out to bat he knows he has to perform or else he will be dropped and its affected his game badly. Yuvraj should never have even been considered. He should wait till there is a vacant spot in the middle order and even then he wouldn't be the first choice. It makes me so angry because a major factor in the success in Australia was Chopra and Sehwag and they decided to mess with a winning formula with Yuvraj who like i said should never have even been considered. And this is coming from a big fan of Yuvraj Singh

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    Cricketer Of The Year Arjun's Avatar
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    Agreed! I too am a fan of Yuvraj Singh, but even I don't support playing him as an opener. Then why not open with Agarkar? He too was an opener in his younger years. Chopra was once the best opener in FC when he got picked, and he shouldn't be discarded permanently, though a few matches for Delhi will help him a lot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dar
    The batting has failed but its the same players that played in asutralia and pakistan apart from obviously the whole yuvraj and chopra musical chairs. Sachin was injured and Laxman simply can't get going and even Dravid hasn't been scoring the big hundreds.

    I think Chopra has really been messed around. He must have left Australia full of confidence and must have thought he and Sehwag were going to be a formidable partnership. Since then he has been a victim of some bad umpiring decisions and also the ridiculous idea that Yuvraj can be a test opener. If Chopra was never dropped he would still have that confidence. Now every time he goes out to bat he knows he has to perform or else he will be dropped and its affected his game badly. Yuvraj should never have even been considered. He should wait till there is a vacant spot in the middle order and even then he wouldn't be the first choice. It makes me so angry because a major factor in the success in Australia was Chopra and Sehwag and they decided to mess with a winning formula with Yuvraj who like i said should never have even been considered. And this is coming from a big fan of Yuvraj Singh
    You said it . Now we have one opener whose confidence is shattered and a middle order batsman who will have to wait for someone to get injured before he is remembered.

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    Hall of Fame Member Sanz's Avatar
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    Talk about Indian batting and you get only 10 replies and out of that 5 are by SJS who started the thread 3 by Arjun who is still defending them by talking about their averages and how the trio of Sachin-Lax-Dravid could walk into any world XI and blah blah blah ignoring the point that who really cares if Sachin-Dravid-Lax are able to walk into a world eleven or not. I would be much happier with a Katich, Clark or a Martyn (or even a Gillespie) who based on their averages may not be able to walk into any World XI but will be able to stand up in the middle when their team needs it.

    Now start a thread Parthiv's Patel's and watch the exponential growth (compared to this thread ). Arjun alone will post same stuff atleast 5 times in a day.

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    International Debutant V Reddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanz
    Talk about Indian batting and you get only 10 replies and out of that 5 are by SJS who started the thread 3 by Arjun who is still defending them by talking about their averages and how the trio of Sachin-Lax-Dravid could walk into any world XI and blah blah blah ignoring the point that who really cares if Sachin-Dravid-Lax are able to walk into a world eleven or not. I would be much happier with a Katich, Clark or a Martyn (or even a Gillespie) who based on their averages may not be able to walk into any World XI but will be able to stand up in the middle when their team needs it.

    Now start a thread Parthiv's Patel's and watch the exponential growth (compared to this thread ). Arjun alone will post same stuff atleast 5 times in a day.
    You serious Sanz. Dravid has just only failed in his last 3 innings and you campare him with Patel who has been the same for one whole year. If you look at any recent Indian wins , they have been mainly due to Laxman and Dravid .

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    great wall?

    the great wall looks like it is made of no sterner a substance than cow pat...

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    Hall of Fame Member Sanz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by V Reddy
    You serious Sanz. Dravid has just only failed in his last 3 innings and you campare him with Patel who has been the same for one whole year. If you look at any recent Indian wins , they have been mainly due to Laxman and Dravid .
    No Sir. It has been team India which has been winning test matches for India not Mr. Dravid or Mr. Laxman.

    One person's success/Failure dont/cant alter the outcome of a match. (Reminds me of a test match in in Melbourne where Sehwag scored 190+ India still lost the match)

    Just to check up on stats, Dravid's performance since he returned from Australia :- 6, 33, 0, 270, 0, 60, 26, 21

    I dont consider his 60 as a success, and the test match where he scored 270, Shoaib got injured and didn't return to bowl the next day, here are the bowlers who really bowled(Please tell me how many of them you recognize as a half decent test bowlers) :

    Shoaib Akhtar 21 .2 7 47 3
    Fazl-E-Akbar 40 .4 3 162 1
    D Kaneria 62 4 178 2
    Mohammad Sami 40 11 116 1
    Imran Farhat 12 .2 1 69 2
    Yasir Hameed 1 0 5 0

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