The famed Indian batting line up !!

[TendulkarFan]

When you don't have a wash for two years, even the fleas will desert you, and you don't have to be Sidhu to say so.

This Team India, or Team BCCI, or Team Ganguly, has been on a downward trend, while other teams have improved by leaps and bounds. Sri Lanka have a new spin partner for Murali, and another came up in Pakistan, and their batting has improved. England have Flintoff, Harmison and some new, fresh and useful players. Pakistan have improved under Bob Woolmer, and now have the better of the Indians. The West Indians have won the Champions Trophy. The Indians have done nothing since Pakistan 2004. Don't you want the team to improve?

Who said anything about replacing Sachin, Laxman or Dravid?

Do you know the population of India? Surely there is a Lance Klusener somewhere, playing for some Ranji team. If the selectors broke this club mentality, they would have had good bench strength. They would have an all-rounder the team needs so bad. A big-hitter who can change matches. Don't you want one in the Indian team?

Yeah, but it's only been 6-7 odd months since Pakistan 2004. And they have only played 3 tests against the best team on the planet; and one that was determined to win.

Of course I want the team to improve. And yes they have been on a downward trend for the last few months. But one bad series or 6-7 inconsistent months are not enough to discount 4 years of progress. That's why I'm all in favour of giving Ganguly until the end of SA series. If he loses another series on home turf, then it's time to look for a different leader.

 

[marc71178]

Most importantly, the team needs a Lance Klusener.

Why does it?

And when will you learn that that sort of Cricketer cannot be just picked if he doesn't exist?!

 

[marc71178]

But one bad series or 6-7 inconsistent months are not enough to discount 4 years of progress.

4 years of progress?

The results don't show that.

 

[masterblaster]

It's really 4 years of 'what could've been'.

I think to get into 12 odd consecutive ODI finals and to start winning abroad was a big thing, but they didn't clinch it. They only won 2 out of those 12 odd consecutive finals and didn't win a series abroad until they beat Pakistan (which is like home conditions anyway).

It's a case of 'what could've been' in my opinion.

 

[marc71178]

I was talking more about Tests - a pretty much level win to losses ratio isn't the greatest by a long chalk.

 

[TendulkarFan]

4 years of progress?

The results don't show that.

Which rock have you been hiding under for the last 4 years?

- India won test matches in England, Australia and Pakistan (maybe more but I can't remember). They won the test series in Pakistan, a feat never accomplished in the history of this game before. As an icing on the cake, they won the ODI series too.
- They have won more test matches under Ganguly than under any captain in the history of Indian cricket. Azharuddin is the next one on the list and he captained India for heck of a lot longer than Ganguly - I suspect the wins/games ratio differential is significant.
- If not for dour resistance by Katich, Gillespie or Steve Waugh, they would have won the Sydney test as well as the series down under. Who has even come close to accomplishing that?
- They reached the World Cup final, beating everyone in the tournament comprehensively except the Aussies.
- Until very recently, they have had a fighting spirit rarely seen in Indian cricket before which has been a refreshing sight for all us Indian cricket fans.

Those are the only few points I could come up with from the top of my head. One of the other ardent Ganguly supporters (which I am not) on this board may supplement my post with cold, hard numbers if they wish.

Does this not look like progress to you? If it doesn't tell me why not.

Considering the derision that the Indian cricket team and its supporters have attracted in your recent posts, I won't be surprised to see another nonsensical one-liner from you, with no backing up of the claim of course.

Regards,
TF

 

[thierry henry]

Dravid is still a great player. Tendulkar is also a great, but is he past his best? Ganguly was never a great test batsman, while Laxman is the single most overrated sportsman I have ever seen in my life. Sehwag is alright but if there's any justice his test record will level out over time (although I said the same about ugly Adam Gilchrist and it still hasn't happened).

 

[Sanz]

4 years of progress?

The results don't show that.

You have to look at it from the Indian perspective and not your own standards.Leave last 4-5 months and honestly answer the following :-

Has Ganguly's team won more matches abraod than any other Indian team ?

Has Ganguly's team performed better in ODIs than any other Indian team ?

Has Ganguly's team performed better than any other Indian team in Australia ?

Has Ganguly proved to be a better leader than most of the Indian captains ?

 

[SJS]

You have to look at it from the Indian perspective and not your own standards.Leave last 4-5 months and honestly answer the following :-

Has Ganguly's team won more matches abraod than any other Indian team ?

Has Ganguly's team performed better in ODIs than any other Indian team ?

Has Ganguly's team performed better than any other Indian team in Australia ?

Has Ganguly proved to be a better leader than most of the Indian captains ?

Unqualified yes to first three. Qualified yes to the fourth.

 

[Sanz]

SJS, Please note that I used the word 'Most'.

Since I wasn't even born People Tiger led India or someone named Wadekar led India to a couple oversease test victories over WI & Eng, so cant comment on how good they were. From whatever I have heard/read It seems that Tiger was a superb captain but same cant be said for Mr. Wadekar.

I have been fortunate enough to watch Sunny Gavaskar, Kapildev, Dilip Vengsarkar, Ravi Shastri, Kris Srikanth, Md. Azharuddin, Ajay Jadeja, Sachin Tendulkar, Rahul Dravid, Virender Sehwag and Sourav Ganguly and IMO except Ravi Shastri(who captained in only one test match and probably a couple of ODIs) no one comes close. Ravi, I think, would have made an excellent captain but I dont know why he wasn't picked to lead India.

 

[SJS]

SJS, Please note that I used the word 'Most'.

Since I wasn't even born People Tiger led India or someone named Wadekar led India to a couple oversease test victories over WI & Eng, so cant comment on how good they were. From whatever I have heard/read It seems that Tiger was a superb captain but same cant be said for Mr. Wadekar.

I have been fortunate enough to watch Sunny Gavaskar, Kapildev, Dilip Vengsarkar, Ravi Shastri, Kris Srikanth, Md. Azharuddin, Ajay Jadeja, Sachin Tendulkar, Rahul Dravid, Virender Sehwag and Sourav Ganguly and IMO except Ravi Shastri(who captained in only one test match and probably a couple of ODIs) no one comes close. Ravi, I think, would have made an excellent captain but I dont know why he wasn't picked to lead India.

Fair enough

 

[tooextracool]

Most importantly, the team needs a Lance Klusener.

why? to average 30 odd with the bat and 38 odd with the ball?

 

[tooextracool]

Pollock did pretty well the last time SAF toured India though, didn't he?

that was before he lost the yard of pace, in the last 3 years or so, hes been largely ineffective on pitches that dont offer movement.

 

[tooextracool]

It's really 4 years of 'what could've been'.

I think to get into 12 odd consecutive ODI finals and to start winning abroad was a big thing, but they didn't clinch it. They only won 2 out of those 12 odd consecutive finals and didn't win a series abroad until they beat Pakistan (which is like home conditions anyway).

It's a case of 'what could've been' in my opinion.

more like last 2 years if you ask me....

 

[tooextracool]

I was talking more about Tests - a pretty much level win to losses ratio isn't the greatest by a long chalk.

certainlt significantly better than what it has been in the last 20 years.....

 

[masterblaster]

more like last 2 years if you ask me....

It started with the ICC Champions Trophy in 2000 where they got to the final, beat Australia, were favourites but were pipped by New Zealand.

Then at home, overseas, everywhere they've got in the final on atleast 11-12 occasions in the last 4 years, but they have lost most of them. This is ODI's im talking about though.

The test side has won overseas fairly recently, so that 2 year window you were mentioning is valid for the test side, the ODI side has been missing out for the last 4 years.

 

[Sudeep]

IMO all India needs is a dependable opening batsman.

What's happened in this series is that the meat of the batting line-up was exposed to the Australian bowlers with the ball relatively new.

Dravid has mostly been a failure against Aussies at #3 in India, and that's because he's had to face the new ball too early. He does have the best of techniques, but no one is perfect. It seems as if the Aussies know what to ball at Dravid early on in his innings, with the ball still new.

Tendulkar was returning from a major injury. Prior to that, he was out of form, bar a couple of innings. His new batting strategy is to block or leave anything good, and hit only the bad balls, while earlier he used to make good balls scoring as well. The Aussies exploited this very well, and considering he was batting after a long time, he was bound to struggle.

But it's only been one match. I'm sure with the same strategy, Sachin will come good. All he needs is a decent run in the middle, and against the Aussies is definitely not the easiest things to do.

Laxman is going through a slump. I wonder if swaping places with Dravid for the final place might help both of them, just like it did in 2001. It's an option that IMO definitely needs to be looked at, short-term, just so that everything returns back to normal.

 

[tooextracool]

It started with the ICC Champions Trophy in 2000 where they got to the final, beat Australia, were favourites but were pipped by New Zealand.

yes and they followed that up with being completely destroyed in sharjah(54 all out anyone?), losing the tri series in SA and the tri series in zimbabwe, along with a drawn ODI series against england(who werent exactly setting the world alight with their ODI side) . not particularly brilliant i might add.

Then at home, overseas, everywhere they've got in the final on atleast 11-12 occasions in the last 4 years, but they have lost most of them. This is ODI's im talking about though.

yes i know that they got into several finals, just like they did in the 90s, and continued with their curse of losing those finals too. not like it took a lot to get to the finals in tri series involving kenya and zimbabwe either.

 

[honestbharani]

Time to rile up some debate here from my fellow Indian cricket fans.

The bowling by Australia has been SPECTACULAR! You mention how Australia's bowling attack in 2004 weren't as good as in 2001? Maybe not, but they were a hell of a lot smarter. There is no doubt that psychologically, India were down and their mental toughness was nothing near anything they displayed in 2001 and 2003.

But one thing stood out for me in this test in particular (3rd test). Gillespie, Kaspa and McGrath bowled stump to stump. Compare this to the 4th test, where Sachin was allowed to leave ball after ball outside his off stump, and when the right ball came, BAM, he'd take care of it as only he can. He was out of form, he was allowed to be brought back into form, granted his integrity and mental strength was also a part of that, but Gillespie and Lee didn't bowl well enough.

Back to 2004, they attacked Sachin immediately. He was under pressure from the get go, and he felt it. He meddled with people behind the sightscreen, he was clearly uncomfortable. They bowled stump to stump, line and length, and they got him LBW. They out-thought the little Master.

I am not going to stand up here and go "Everything is fine, we were just beaten by a better team, Indian cricket is alive and well". I'd be an idiot to say that. I agree changes need to be made, I agree subtle commentary and inner disputes need to stop arising. I agree Ganguly (I'm a big fan so don't call me a hater) needs to get some of his decisions right, and get his head out of his ass. But to deny the Aussie greatness in this test match would be silly.

"We were beaten by a better team" is what Rahul Dravid said in the match ceremony, and it's clearly true. Australia had a better squad of players, Rahul knew that, India know that, you guys surely know that.

Dropping Laxman, Tendulkar and Dravid is not the answer. Also I'd put Sehwag in that boat, because he's the only one that seems to be able to take it to the Aussies head on, despite the pressure he faces. He's an asset of a different kind compared to those other 3. Kaif should stay in the team for a LONG LONG time. I don't know who you'd kick out, but I think he should stay. We need the opening situation sorted, I agree with you all, Chopra's confidence was shattered, but as much as I love the guy, he's not the answer to India's problems. He relies much too much on Sehwag performing. Say Sehwag is injured and we open with umm... Patel and Chopra for instance. Wow, that looks totally different doesn't it? Even if you throw Ramesh or Das in there, or whom ever, Sehwag has added something to India's opening pairs in recent times that nothing has been able to. Frankly, he goes underappreciated much too often. Hopefully this series will show the fans that he is a man of mental strenght. He does lose his patience and concentration, but at least he doesn't fold to pressure. And he proved all the critics wrong that wanted him dropped.

India needs to restructure itself regarding schedules, regarding selection and definitely team unity (something that was so evident only 8 months ago). If we stop putting this emphasis on the pyjama game, and realise that test cricket is where it is at (we are starting to now), maybe we'll improve.

On a closing note, I'd just like to point out the irony that what denied us of fighting chance in this series was our batting, rather than our bowling. Our bowling was my main fear leading up to the series, but it was our greatest strength that failed us when we needed it. However, it failed us due to many reasons, low confidence, inadequate preparation and a great Australian team that is being overlooked in this thread.

I don't think the Aussie bowling has been any better, to be honest. They were more disciplined, but they were not bowling as many great deliveries as they did in 2001. But, the field placings were better and the overall planning for this series was outstanding from the Aussies. But I can understand us being defeated because of this in one test, the first, but then having seen what they were doing, we should have changed our plans accordingly.



I question what Wright, Ganguly and the other seniors were doing. For example, this Aussie line of pitching it reasonably up and bringing the ball back in with a packed leg side field could have been countered by the Indian batters batting a couple of feet away from the crease and trying to get on the front foot as much as possible. Also, they could have either taken middle stump guard for those who like to play on the on side and they could have taken outside leg stump guard to hit on the off side. I am not saying it would have worked but these stuff were worth a try.


I think what India lacked in this series is an ability to make the actual changes where they were necessary. Yuvraj/Chopra opening has hardly made an impact, neither were good enough in this series. They should have tried maybe 3 spinners at Bangalore and Chennai, something like that. We have only changed the personnel, not the formula, and perhaps that has cost us.



Finally, with the next test and the series against SA coming up, some of the guys need to be changed. Laxman needs a break to try and get his game organised again and stage a comeback. I think even Dravid needs a break, from all cricket possibly, he is looking very negative. His captaincy was awful, to say the least, and his batting, especially in the first innings when he was in decent enough form to middle so many deliveries, was not much better than awful. Sachin should try and bat the way he did in the late 90s, in an attacking mode, because that is the way that would help India win matches. We already have Dravid to do what Sachin did at Sydney. Sourav should probably take a break too. He looks very tired and not in his usual fighting self. Perhaps, Gambhir and Sriram can come in for Dravid and Laxman.



But I guess with Sourav missing from next test in all probability, Dravid should stay, but atleast people have to tell him that he has to be positive. Not positive as in hitting a shot every ball, but positive as in putting away the bad balls as and when they come along and taking as many singles as he can in between. One of the biggest disappointments from the Indian point of view in this series was the inability of the Indian batters to take singles for a long period of time, sustain a partnership instead of trying to hit boundaries all the time. I think, in a nutshell, it is our inability to adapt and change that cost us dear.

 

[masterblaster]

I think the 54 all out was in a final, so that counts as one of those 12 finals lost since the year 2000, but yeah I understand what you've been trying to say.